Talk:Enola Gay

Question about subscription-only material

Does wikipedia have a policy about linking to subscription-only material? (The "Eye Witness" link goes to time.com). --David Battle 20:36, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

It's allowed, but if you can find a free version of the same material, you're encouraged to link to that instead. Shouldn't be possible here, so no biggie. Meelar (talk) 20:38, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Paul Tibbet's Mother

Does anyone know what book Enola Gay Tibbets was named after? Wikipedia seems to be the only place where this is mentioned. Patrick 09:16, August 13, 2005

Novel for which Enola Gay was named

Enola, or, Her Fatal Mistake (1886), by Mary Young Ridenbaugh

The story includes the passage:

“We have been discussing the "clouds of sorrow" that have obscured a bright and beautiful life, that afforded food for meditation. How many clouds have darkened the horizon of other valuable lives. There are clouds too real, not figurative, that we will now contemplate. ... The funnel-shaped cloud deals death and destruction to all that come within its whirling, deadly grasp. When seeing the approach of such a cloud, it sends an agonizing thrill of horror into the heart of the beholder...”

Enola Gay in Pop Culture Section

Does anyone have thoughts on the Enola Gay in Pop Culture Section? My feeling is what is there now is ok, except for removing part of The Simpsons comments "obviously similar to" which I agree with one other user is wordy and not necessary.

Above and beyond that, my concern is that the section not be overly cluttered, as it takes away from the true purpose of the article. It's fine to state there are some connections to modern day pop culture, but I think we have to becareful not to let the section get too large. I hope people would take that into consideration when adding to that section of the article.

Just in case anyone wonders why I care, I have a personal connection to this article. Davidpdx 04:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think your concern is justified. It seems this sort of stuff can overwhelm an article, depending on how its popularity engenders a kind of "me, too" response. That said, it is relevant information and can be a great resource for people legitimately researching how something significant resonates in the culture. But when things get out of hand (an undefined threshold) in any article, perhaps a secondary "Some Phenomenon in popular culture" article should be created and reference by the main article. -- Kbh3rd 05:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I agree the threshold is definately undefined. It seems like quite a bit has been added lately. That's why I have put the caution out to people in terms of what they post in the section. Right now it's ok, but I agree with you that if everyone has a "me, too response" it could become out of hand. This is one of the articles I keep a close eye on, I hope you will as well. Just a side note, I was the person who took out "obviously similar to" portion on The Simpsons comments. Davidpdx 15:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Is vs Was

It seems like several people have changed the wording in reference to the plane "was a B-29 Superfortress bomber" instead of "is a B-29 Superfortress." The plane DOES still exsist and has been fully restored. The Enola Gay is sitting in a museum near Washington DC therefore it still exsists. I'm not sure why people are justifying changing it to past tense. If there are issues in regards to those diffrences please discuss it on the talk page rather then simply reverting it. Thanks... Davidpdx 06:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't really care one way or the other, but my rationale for advocating past tense is that, presumably, she is no longer an active member of USAAF. Lucidish 02:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

That's true, but the plane itself is still around and has been fully restored. I honestly am more comfortable with "is" being used. Other then that, the rewrite is good. Davidpdx 07:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It's universally done to speak of museum pieces as they were on active duty. A B-17 is always a B-17 Flying Fortress; a Bf-109 is always a Bf-109. To use the past tense would puzzle or amuse readers who are familiar with these aircraft. It would be like saying of Michelangelo's painting in the Louvre that "this was the Mona Lisa." --Cubdriver 11:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure, if considering it to be in active duty is the convention, then I don't mind putting it in present-tense. But, just to make a moot comment: the rest of the paragraph doesn't address the issue: the criterion not having to do with the make of the plane, but rather to do with active duty status. Lucidish 17:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Michelangelo's"? Not related to Enola Gay or anything, just found it a bit funny =) Daniel Lindsäth 09:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right! What if it read: "is the B-29 Superfortress of the USAAF that dropped" or something like that? --Cubdriver 21:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Lucidish 22:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm ok with that Cub. There is some duplicate information though in the first paragraph that is contained again later in the article. This was due to a recent edit. If someone could clean that up as well it would be nice. I'm not sure what to do about it.

Can you guys also look at my comments down in the "Revisiting the issue of Pop Culture Section." I've posted some more ideas. Thanks! Davidpdx 23:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Revisiting the Issue of the Pop Culture Section

To continue the conversation where we left off about 3 months ago, I guess there is now someone who wishes to remove the entire section of Enola Gay in the Pop Culture. I really have no problem with it, but I think other's might.

I do agree that the whole thing is getting out of hand. Putting game codes in because they use the same words is pretty useless information. At some point, I think we need to figure out how to make this section work so it doesn't become a mess. If anyone has suggestions, I'm open to them. You can leave a message on my talk page if necessary. Davidpdx 08:18, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the Waterworld one, with just Enola, no Gay, should be removed. Also, the song being played as a cover in the first one is not relevant enough. I'll make those changes, and if they don't stick, so be it.--ragesoss 15:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The Utah Philips song is also confusing: "namesake of a song"? Is it the name of the song, or is the song named something related. In either case, it should be made clear what the name of the song is (in quotes).--ragesoss 15:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

As for removing the whole thing, I don't think it's completely worthless. But as you recognize, the problem is drawing the line, so it doesn't fill back up over time. I think careful monitoring and judgment calls about new additions are appropriate, assuming we reach consensus on keeping it at all.--ragesoss 15:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, this discussion seems to be in two places, so I'll repeat what I just posted above: There was a similar problem on the Flying Tigers (American Volunteer Group) page, called in that case "Trivia." These things seem to be magnets for -- well, for trivia. I'd vote for simply deleting the section, which is what I finally did with the AVG Trivia. It may since have reappeared, but I don't think so. History is important; trivia isn't. --Cubdriver 15:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, I just got a little irritated with the section and nuked it (so to speak) because these sorts of things simply become laundry lists for every time a famous thing is mentioned in a cartoon or a videogame (I mean, the thing is rather famous, it is not surprising that there are tons of references to it in pop culture, and I don't see the value in enumerating them). I think one could also make the argument that all of these sections are violations of WP:NOR unless the subject actually has been written about in a text specifically about its influence/appearance in pop culture (see, i.e. Nuclear weapons in popular culture, a well-written about topic). But anyway, I understand that some people like these sorts of sections and apparently derive some value from them that I don't, so I won't be a hard-ass about it. --Fastfission 16:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the trimmed section is better, but the problem I see is that we need to make some kind of guideline or requirement for what should be added to this section.

Then comment needs to be added before that section that is invisible, but can be seen when someone edits it which says to check the talk page before adding anything to that section. Many times I've seen this done with <>.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any suggestions in terms of these idea. Davidpdx 00:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Another thing I noticed is that the items put on this category are often done by people who are do not bother to register for an account. Certainly, it would be easier to communicate with them if they would bother to register. Since they just edit based on the IP address, it does make working with them more difficult. Davidpdx 02:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to add to my comments above, I think we should put a note (the invisible one) at the top of the article and also at the beginning of the Pop Culture section asking people to look at the talk page.

Also we should come up with some critera in terms of what should be considered main stream enough to be added. It should be a pretty high bar due to the fact that people are adding things that just don't make sense. I'm not sure how to quantify what should be there and what shouldn't be there, but I think we need to come to a consensus to prevent the section from being overly cluttered.

It's worth noting that Factfission brought up a good point about WP:NOR. I came across this discussion in a Google search in two places [1]and [2].

In terms of the critera, I was playing around on Google, in terms of searching for specific strings of words that are used in those sections. When I Googled {Simpsons, Krusty "Enola Gay"} I recieved 1,140 hits. The reason I had to put Enola Gay in quotes was because I was getting a lot of porn sites, so it wasn't accurately measuring how many hits. [3] I did the same for Nicola Six with 548 hits. [4].

I think a minimum 10,000 hits on Goggle should be needed to add to this section. Does that seem too high? What about 5,000 hits? Here is what Wikipedia says about Wikipedia:List of ways to verify notability of articles Davidpdx 07:21, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The first thing that comes to mind for me is that a) the references have to actually be relevant, i.e., are referencing the Enola Gay as a plane and not just the use of the words; and b) the venues have to be really popular: television shows, monuments, etc. Google hits won't work for trivia because, well, the information is trivial. ;)

a) for instance covers a certain kind of referencing: in satire, in a documentary, etc. By contrast, if it is just added to a TV show or something without making any allusion to the plane itself, it's probably not worth anything. Same with video game codes. Lucidish 19:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Lucidish, I totally agree with you. The problem is can we set guidelines for this to make clearer what should be and what shouldn't be added. As you stated it seems that people want to put in everything that relates to the words "Enola Gay." Also what do you think about Fastfissions statement WP:NOR? Davidpdx 23:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I think invoking NOR on this one, which perhaps technically applicable, is just one way we might use to justify getting rid of material that we know is silly for other reasons. I don't think it, as a complaint, actually stands on its own merits in this case. That is to say, when I picture OR, I think of detectives snooping in the hedges and collecting material, busybodies writing opinion columns, or User:Licorne writing about Einstein -- in other words, stuff that would actually be disputable or surprising to informed people. But this is really just reporting what are, one hopes, fairly mundane facts. I'd prefer a Relevance test to weed out the bull instead of a NOR test. Lucidish 04:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I agree. How can we put together a relevence test? Davidpdx 23:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Some will be obviously relevant; some will need sourced interpretations; some will be obviously irrelevant; and some we just don't have enough information to judge. For instance:

• the Krusty the Klown / Simpsons mention is satire, so it's obviously relevant. The Utah Phillips song is also an obvious reference to the plane.
• The OMD song isn't obviously relevant, since the lyrics aren't about any plane, or about the mission. But we have to presume that they're making a veiled reference, hence the choice of song title, and the intentional use of the words "little boy" (the name of the atom bomb that the EG was carrying). Still, in this case, it's too opaque on its own: to keep it around, we would need to cite an art critic or songwriter to interpret it.
• Game codes are obviously irrelevant, since they only make mention of the name "Enola Gay" without using them in any substantive way.
• I'd need more information about the book London Fields in order to judge what was going on in the naming of the character. Lucidish 02:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem I see with going on a case by case basis is that in the end, too many things that are unrelated are going to bog down the article and then someone is going to come along and just chop the whole thing out (which did happen).

I'm trying to think of something proactive that can be done. Either that or as someone else suggested make a separate article for Enola Gay in Pop Culture. I'm not sure, what should be done. I think to simply leave it on its own makes me wonder if the same people (who are anon IP's) will just keep sticking things like game codes in the article.

Actually looking at the works to the OMD song, there is a direct link just in that it talks about "8:15" which is the time the bomb detonated. It also references the name "little boy" which is the nickname of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

If it's on a case by case basis, it should be upto the person who posted it, to provide a reference or some kind of a statement saying how the pop culture reference is related to the plane. In the case of the book, I'd say remove it until it can be proven. Davidpdx 08:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, sure, the song references Hiroshima. If some song writer through emotion or cynicism references the Holocaust, does that justify have a Holocaust in Popular Culture section in an encyclopedia? Since I lived through this history, I feel that the bombing was completely justified, but I recognize that it was one of the most awful moments in human history, and I cringe whenever I see the heading in question. I think I would feel that even more strongly if I had lived through August 1945 in Japan instead of the U.S. --Cubdriver 11:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Cub, you bring up an excellent point. However, I think we should becareful and try to avoid the history debate altogether (even though I agree with you 100%). I'm trying to come up with a solution and not feeling like I'm getting much help here. If indeed the song shouldn't be here, that's fine with me. However, I think we need to come up with a criteria that is less subjective. One person could say, it belongs here, while another could remove it. Can you guys see the potential problem? Davidpdx 12:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Cub: The Holocaust analogy is interesting, and does bring conflicting intuitions. But there are two disanalogies between a hypothetical "Holocaust in pop culture" section and this one here. a) While the Holocaust, along with Hiroshima, is far from obscure, the name of the planes involved are less well known. b) The bombing of Hiroshima and the Holocaust are direct references to humans and human suffering. Nobody wants to objectify persons or tragedies, which is why a "Holocaust in pop culture" section might be distasteful. But the plane that performed these acts is, at the end of the day, an object: a plane.

Dave: you're right that the burden of proof is on whoever posts the entry, but on the other hand, doing a little legwork (book reviews, say) won't hurt anyone. Re, the OMD song: I never noticed the 8:15 reference, thanks for pointing it out. With these peices of evidence, the OMD song can be said to be on the border between being explicit and implicit. Lucidish 16:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I see another "song" has been added to the section. In my view, that makes it more offensive by 20 percent (whatever). Can't we in all decency get rid of this section, which only encourages shock/schlock jocks to exploit Hiroshima one more time? --Cubdriver 11:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Cub, I totally agree with you (of course you know that), but I just wonder if taking that out will cause more problems with people putting it back in. There is just no reason this BS belongs in the Enola Gay article, so I'm going to take it out and leave a message on the talk page. At the same time, I'm going to leave the rest of the section alone

I again urge someone to propose guidelines for posting in that section. If not, the same thing will keep happening. Davidpdx 14:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

About Enola Gay song by Andrés Calamaro I want to say that is not a song on Enola Gay (I've said is a critical song with the states and their politics with the link of Hiroshima bombing in Davidpdx discussion), but there is a direct reference in the lyrics: "do you know what the Enola Gay is?, es el avión que tiró la bomba sobre Hiroshima"; i.e. "do you know what the Enola Gay is? is the plane that dropped the bomb over Hiroshima". Thank you: Ferrys Llíria (note:this comment was moved from another section to make sure it was included in the most recent conversation)

I see, there is a little bit stronger link then. The problem was that most people can't tell that because there was no sourcing (plus the song was in Spanish). I would urge you if possible to see if you can find any articles about Calamaro on the internet. What would be even better is if you could find and interview with him talking about the song. Also check to see if there is an English Wiki article about Calamaro.

I'll look for Calamaro talking about the song, but it'll be difficult because is not a very succesful song on El Salmón album and this album contained 103 songs, so I don't think he'll talk a lot about the song. I think it will be easy to find something in internet about the song, but it will be more difficult to find something in english. Gràcies Ferrys Llíria.

If you do a little leg work, putting it back in might not be a bad idea. Does anyone else have a take on this? Davidpdx 13:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

My only concerns have to do with whether or not it counts as a pop culture reference. Whose "pop culture" is being talked about? What's popular in Latin America may be unknown elsewhere. Lucidish 20:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Possible guideliness

There are three categories of possible additions, one of which requires keeping the item, one which could go either way, and one of which requires discarding the item. The categories are: "Obviously relevant", "requires interpretation / sourcing", "obviously irrelevant".

• An addition is obviously relevant if it includes an explicit mention of the name, and makes use of it with a non-trivial intent (i.e. as an allusion, allegory, satire, etc.), or is a means toward a serious discussion of the event;
• It requires interpretation if there is an explicit mention of the name, but it isn't clear whether or not the reference is trivial or not;
• It is obviously irrelevant if it is merely a trivial mention of the name without any intent to discuss the plane or its historical significance.

If something requires interpretation, and cannot be looked into on Google, and no source has been provided, then it may be discarded until a source is given. Lucidish 18:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Lucidish, I like it. That seems pretty clear. If people can't follow that, then they shouldn't be posting stuff.

I recommend that these be put in right underneath the section that says "Enola Gay in Popular Culture" heading with the arrows that make them invisable. Does anyone else have a take on the guidlines? Davidpdx 00:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I had just said this on Lucidish's talk page, but I think it's worth saying here as well:

I know a few people are getting utterly annoyed at some of the stuff that is being put in there and want to cut the entire section. My thought is someone will just come along and put it back in anyway. It's better to have it there with specific guidelines then have to struggle with people readding the entire section. And it does have some relevant qualities. Davidpdx 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Pop Culture Entries

I just added the Mechwarrior part, I thought it was important to show just how wide spread the useage of the name was, across many medias, TV, Music, now videogames. Thanks - Seth 24.118.254.26 19:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC) [note this was moved by Davidpdx]

I just reverted the entry of the videogame codes. My take on this is just because the mear words "Enola Gay" are present, doesn't make a strong enough argument that it should be part of the pop culture section. The main problem with this is if everything is added to this section that has even the slightest link to the words, the section will become unmanageable and overshadow the article itself.

Please keep in mind, this is an article about a historic plane in WWII. While the pop culture section is useful, I think it can also become cluttered with things that don't have any relation to the article. Davidpdx 04:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Pop Culture Section

Some may have noticed that the pop culture section was removed by myself. This is due to the constant abuse of unregistered users adding entries about anything slightly related to the article. My feeling is that people don't take the time to read the talk page, but instead quickly add the reference and disappear never to be heard from again.

We've discussed this numerous times with no real solution. It's getting rediculous that we have to keep reverting because of people's carelessness. If someone has an issue with this, please air it out here and let me know what you think. Davidpdx 00:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. David. I 100% endorse your actions here --rogerd 00:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I provided a solution, which David commended. But I really don't care enough to pursue the matter. Lucidish 02:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Lucidish, I think your solution is good, but if people don't follow the directions, then it's not feasible. The problem is 95% of the entries made to this section are put there by unregistered users who come and go and don't follow the directions to see the talk page. Either they don't care or can't read. Then it's left to us (whomever has the page on their watchlist) to "police" it. It simply doesn't work. Davidpdx 04:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess the policy would have to be wikipidia-wide in order to have the kind of enforcement you're worried about. Maybe someone should try to make it official policy or somesuch. Lucidish 19:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

revisiting [5] - Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content: "When properly written, such sections can positively distinguish Wikipedia from more traditional encyclopedias. They should be verifiable and should contain facts of genuine interest to the reader. Detailing a topic's impact upon popular culture can be a worthwhile contribution to an article, provided that the content is properly sourced and consistent with policies and guidelines." Accotink2 talk 14:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of a reference to the OMD song

I've seen the discussion about the pop culture, but I believe that a reference to OMD's song is relevant to this article, since it deals with the bombing of Hiroshima. I think that adding just a line or two either at the beginning of the article before the table of contents, or at the end of the section about the bombing of Hiroshima will be enough. This way an important reference to the plane in pop culture is mentioned, but without opening the floodgates to pointless things like a cheat code in a game. --Marvin Monroe 10:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, however if someone comes in and adds a pop culture section, which will happen, then that pretty much makes people think they are entitled to put anything there regardless of what it is.

The pop culture section is a big problem with this article. Granted I realize having no pop culture references is a bit harsh. The problem is no matter how hard those of us work to put notes in the article(and we have put note in the article that can be seen while editing the article which most people simply ignore), someone comes a long and messes it up. After awhile the pop culture section becomes large and overwhelming so much so, it detracts from the real purpose of the article itself.

If you look back at the talk page, this has been discussed before. I hate to say it, but it's opening a very large can of worms even if we do it the way you suggested (which is quite creative by the way). Davidpdx 10:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of the OMD song has come up yet again and I've removed it. Again, the problem is that if adequate sourcing is not used it opens the possiblity that it will draw pointless entries like cheat codes into the article. Certainly this article is historically significant and I would be displeased to see the article overwhelmed by cheat codes and songs. Davidpdx 09:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Name of aircraft that dropped the Nagasaki bomb

There is some debate about the spelling of the aircraft that dropped the Nagasaki bomb, either "Bockscar", "Bock's Car" or "Bocks Car". The National Museum of the United States Air Force, which has that aircraft, and is run by professional historians and curators, calls it "Bockscar" [6]. That should be authoritative enough for us. rogerd 01:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Rodger, good catch. I've noticed that has been changed a few times. I'm not sure if they are serious editors or if this is someone just looking to vandalize the article. Certainly, assuming it is the former they are at best ill informed in terms of their edits. Hopefully before they revert again they will see your notes. Davidpdx 04:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo Added

I was wondering if anybody can help cast some light on the photo I added. I took it in '87 while on a private tour of the Smitsonian warehouses as part of the Air Force Art Program. It has 5 "Fat Men"? on the side of the Enola Gay. All black except the one on the far right, which is hardly visible, being red. As the Enola Gay dropped Little Boy, why would these be on the side of the Enola Gay? Test drops? rs3 03 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the black fat men stand for practice drops of Mk 3 "Fat Man" bombs filled with concrete, they were nicknamed pumpkins. I think they only built one or two cases for "Little Boy". Even though the Enola Gay dropped "Little Boy" it was still a pretty big bomb. Drawing a thin red man would be misleading, since the Mk 2 "Thin Man" bombs were never used. Drawing a Little Boy would also understate the bomb's explosive power.

I have replaced the picture of the aircraft's cockpit with a picture of the entire plane, illustrating the decoy circle R tail code used for the Hiroshima mission. Anynobody 22:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The pumpkin bombs have their own article (they were built to simulate the Fat Man but were their own entity), and the enumeration of the missions on which they were used to practice the attack are given at 509th Composite Group#Operational history.--Buckboard 19:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Enola Gay page added to Carey Sublette's Nuclear Weapons FAQ

Carey Sublette posted a new page devoted to the Enola Gay on his Nuclear Weapons FAQ website on 13 January 2007 with additional photos of the B-29 on display at the Smithsonian.

Mark Sublette 07:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette 07:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The Missing Sections (A Vandalism Story)

I was wondering why this article was so spare, compared with its sister article on Bockscar. A hint was on this talk page, where I saw discussion of things that were not now in the Enola Gay article. When I searched History to see when they were taken out, I learned that at 16:02 on May 18, 2007, a vandal with the screenname of Eric1sr had replaced the entire World War II History section with "enola gay was a flamer." Within the minute, MartinBot had reverted the vandalism and graffiti. Two minutes later Eric1sr struck again, removing the World War II History section, and again eight minutes after that, removing the Subsequent History section. This time, MartinBot didn't catch it.

At 16:30 the same day, a live user, Nexonen, eliminated the graffiti, but did not restore the missing sections. For the next three months, people kept trying to add information to flesh out the article, but no one noticed that the problem was uncorrected vandalism.

HowardMorland 03:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. I made some edits just a few days before, but I don't even remeber this series of vandal edits. I saw the page yesterday, and thought it looked awflly sparse, but didn't think to check the history then. Thanks! - BillCJ 03:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Personnel question...

There is a personnel memeber of the Enola Gay missing. His name is William "Fay" Riffle. He was my great-uncle, he was also the photographer on the first bombing. I feel he should be added due to the fact that he was on the initial A-bombing of Japan. --Zero Cool 05:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say find an article that shows him as a member of the crew and then add him with a citation to show that. If anyone objects, then it can be discussed further on the talk page.

My grandfather Morris Jeppson was also on the plane and I ended up working on Wikipedia because I ran his name through a search engine. I've had both good and bad experiences on here, but get sick of the infighting, so I've pretty much relegated myself to just popping in from time to time. The Enola Gay article gets a heavy amount of vandalism, so you should add it to your watchlist and keep an eye on it. We need everyone we can get to do that. If you want, you can contact me through the email feature on Wikipedia and send me a note, just remind me who you are as I may forget I posted this a few days from now. Davidpdx 20:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

It turns out he was on one of the accompanying planes (for journalists) lol. --Crash Underride 22:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Kind of makes you wonder about the article's claim that only three of the crew, Tibbetts, Ferebee and Parsons, knew the purpose of the mission. Morris Jeppson knew at least enough to help Parsons arm the bomb in flight. Actually, according to Richard Rhodes in The Making of the Atomic Bomb, pp.700-707, they all knew. They, along with the crews of the chase planes, were briefed that the mission was to deliver a new and unprecedentedly destructive bomb. Parsons was supposed to show them the secret film of the Trinity test blast, but when the projector jammed he just gave them a description of the bomb's effects. He stressed that people 20 miles away were temporarily blinded, presumably so that the crews really would don their flash goggles when told. On the flight, Enola Gay's rear gunner Bob Caron made a smart guess and asked Tibbetts, 'Colonel, are we splitting atoms today?' Tibbetts, a bit shook up, said, 'That's about it,' and when he returned to the flight deck he got on the intercom and told the whole crew they were carrying an atomic weapon. -Hugo Barnacle 87.114.45.227 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Enola Homosexual

I recall a story about how a newspaper had referred to "the controversial Enola Homosexual exhibit." If this is true and verifiable, should it get a brief mention on the page? --Scottandrewhutchins 02:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't ever recall hearing that and in fact I have followed what has been going on with personal and exhibits for almost the past 20 years. If there is a source, then please provide it. Otherwise it needs to be left out. Davidpdx 09:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like an urban legend. Bzuk 11:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC).

I did Google that phrase and got these results: [7]. Yes, a newspaper editor for at Northwest Herald made an error in editing the words "Enola Gay" to "Enola Homosexual" because they thought it the word "gay" was a reference to homosexual. I honestly don't think it's noteable enough under Wikipedia policy WP:N to be mentioned in the article. If anyone wants to argue otherwise, please discuss it here. Davidpdx 12:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur, the very mention of a trivial fact does not meet the test of notability. FWIW Bzuk 14:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC).

Concur. However, we could list it on the new World's Dumbest Journalists and Editors article ;) - BillCJ 15:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a pretty bad mistake by the editor. I have to wonder if he got laughed out of town for that one. Davidpdx 10:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Eight years later, another newspaper has done exactly the same thing [8] Catsmeat (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Something's odd here. The original story is from a site called the Observer Chronicle. According to its About US page, "The Observer Chronicle is a online media organization based out of New York State. We report on local and national news stories." Most of there stories are from other news outlets like AP, but some are by "Observer Staff Reporter". The Hiroshima story reads like a machine translation, such as "Japan’s Prime Minister Shinzo Abe used the event to name for worldwide nuclear disarmament" in the first paragraph, where "name" should be "call". That would make sense in tranlating "Gay" as Homosexual". On the other hand, in may be like this story, where an automated system was set up always to change the word "gay" to "homosexual". The site has large ad banners on the right of the screen, and may just be a wanna-be news agregator site trying to make money off of ads, and translating stories form other languages without proper attribution, hoping no one will notice. - BilCat (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

NEWS FLASH! I can verify that this is NOT an urban legend. The Northwest Herald had a headline with "Enola Homosexual" in it.

I lived in Wonder Lake Illinois and was getting the Northwest Herald at the time. It was shortly after the Smithsonian display went up and believe this makes it 1995:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1995/06/28/enola-gay-exhibit-plane-and-simple/93889cd7-48df-4d8c-87a0-14295126281e/?utm_term=.98c394d9a2bb

The by-line, as I recall, I assumed was for a Woodstock Illinois editor. I don't recall it now, but his name was familiar to me since I saw it frequently in the paper. I do not know if the paper was owned by Shaw Media at the time, but if anyone wants to bird-dog it, their Cust Svc number is (866) 979-1053. This has to be a well known legend within the industry!

The headline grabbed my attention because I was familiar with the plane's name and it took me a while for it to "click" so-to-speak, because the body of the article made no mention of any homosexual reference. I'm pretty sure it got other publicity at the time and I also saw a subsequent apology about the PC gaff.. It appeared, at least to me, that it was a local copywriter (Headline writer / typesetter) blunder attempting to be PC. (I just Googled and happened by Wiki to see if I could get the date of that article) Regards, -- Steve -- (talk) 15:03, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

The Los Angeles Times has a photograph of the headline: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-xpm-2013-apr-08-la-ol-extra-extra-illegal-immigrant-and-other-language-changes-20130408-story.html --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 23:06, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

He refers to the Crystal Lake, IL paper I saw it in, but Unfortunately LA Times has a PayWall so you can't see it, unless you know a trick.... Regards, -- Steve -- (talk) 03:26, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Leave it to Dick Armey to publicly refer to "Enola F*g": https://books.google.com/books?id=FOa3BgAAQBAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=%22Enola+Fag%22&source=bl&ots=4-iQtU4EP1&sig=ACfU3U2XT0rFB2U5fYlz5MWTcr2nDUr1QQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiX54zj2InsAhUIh-AKHRssBAQQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Revisiting the pop culture debate

I have no problem with popular culture references to the Enola Gay if the submission meets the criteria of being notable and tied to the significant aspects of the aircraft or its story. There is no precedence for simply removing all popular culture notes without discussion as the tag implies. I have placed another "invisible" tag in the standard location for a popular culture section and would be perfectly willing to monitor the submissions. FWIW Bzuk 13:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC).

I'm fine with that, however most users (especially those that are new) will either not see or ignore your tag and add stuff anyway. The game codes were really the last straw for me as they really had no tie in to the article and I consider them adding trash to an article people have worked hard on. For the past six months or so, things have settled down. However, these things usually come in waves and once the pop section gets put back in, it will open up a whole new door to people putting stupid petty crap in the article again. While I personally don't like the ideas of eliminating the section, the truth is that it attracts more problems then it does useful information. Sitting there and "babysitting" the section is really not what people should have to do. Davidpdx 12:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the entire issue is still a contentious one but I will help "sherrif" and I know I can count on some other conscientious editors from the Aviation Project group to assist. FWIW Bzuk 12:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC).

Just curious. Can someone summarize the pop culture reference? -- Steve -- (talk) 02:09, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Possible etymology

To support what's said in the history of the word Gay about being also a name, it should also be said the Enola Gay was named with the pilot's mother name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.90.237.74 (talk) 00:28, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is already mentioned briefly in the article. Anything more then that takes away from the real purpose of the article, which is the plane and its mission. If anyone else has thoughts about this, please chime in. Davidpdx (talk) 10:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Just a sidenote: I'm a little confused at when the above message by 84.90.237.74 was posted. Based on the actual timestamp in the history section it was left on January 18th, but the signature line states that it was left August 20th 1997. I have my doubts about which one is actually correct. Davidpdx (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, that was my bad. The comment was moved from the Gay talk page by myself as i thought it would help this article. Benjiboi 13:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I understand what happened now. It didn't make much sense at first though. Davidpdx (talk) 04:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Enola Gay or Little Boy

The following sentece was in the Lead:

"Due to the nuclear device's role in the atomic bombings of Japan, the bomb's name has become synonymous with the bombings themselves."

This seems a bit odd, especially since the article is about the plane, not the bomb, and the Lead paragraph should be about the article's main topic. My suspicions were comfirmed when I checked the History. This diff contains this sentence:

"Because of its role in the atomic bombings of Japan, its name has been synonymous with the controversy over the bombings themselves."

This sentence seem to place the emphasis on the subject of the article, which would be the Enola Gay. It was followed by:

"The plane gained additional national attention in 1994 when an exhibit at the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian Institution was changed due to a controversy over its historical script."

That makes it clear to me that the original sentence was about the bomber, not the bomb. Therefore I am restoring the original sentence, with changes to make it clear it is discussing the "Enola Gay".

One last thing: I've eliminated the paragraph break between the first paragraph and the single sentence about Tibbet's mother. Generally, paragraphs of only one sentence are not recommended. - BillCJ (talk) 10:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

EnolaGay at Kelly AFB, Texas ?

Was not the EnolaGay, after WWII, once at Kelly AFB, Texas ? Even temporarily ?

Spencer Vallance email: [email protected] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.69.62.102 (talk) 00:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Barbeque ?

I recall reading that the crew of the Enola Gay had a barbecue to celebrate the mission after they'd landed. Can anyone verify this anecdote ? I'm not trolling, I'd just like to know whether what I read had been fabricated for a story or if it has any basis in fact. TIA. 98.30.49.10 (talk) 12:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Link Removal

Richard H. Nelson linked to a pope, but the pope was not involved in any sort of nuclear bombing. - Ted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.249.18 (talk) 01:31, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your notification - much better than unexplained brackets removal only. And it was a bishop, not pope. --ja_62 01:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible Copyviol

I have noted a number of instances where verbatim copying of information was inserted, these are now amended but there needs to be a check on the article from this point on. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:20, 4 August 2010 (UTC).

A Mistake?

"Mission personnel" section says: Enola Gay's crew on 6 August 1945 consisted of 12 men.

But the crew list in this article includes 13 men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.32.118 (talk) 18:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, corrected. Bzuk (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC).

Copyright problem

This article has been reverted by a bot to this version as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) This has been done to remove User:Accotink2's contributions as they have a history of extensive copyright violation and so it is assumed that all of their major contributions are copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. VWBot (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Challenge to some of our information

User:Atomicjohn has challenged some of the statements in Enola Gay. See diff. His comment was posted in the article itself and has now been removed. I have posted a message on Atomicjohn's Talk page to alert him to removal of his comment and invite him to make suggestions and comments about Wikipedia articles on the article's Talk page.
Anyone with access to the information in Enola Gay that Atomicjohn has challenged should check to see what is stated in the article, what is stated by Atomicjohn, and which is the better view to be expressed in this article. Dolphin (t) 02:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The comment previously in John P. Merrill saying Merrill had been the flight surgeon aboard the Enola Gay, and implying he had been aboard on the mission to Hiroshima on August 8, 1945 has now been removed. See diff. See discussion at Talk:John P. Merrill#Enola Gay flight surgeon. Dolphin (t) 06:00, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

What was on the Indianapolis

"Along with two containers that housed the "Little Boy" and "Fat Man" atomic bombs ([N 2]) welded to the deck of the USS Indianapolis, a "dummy" "Little Boy" assembly was dropped off at Tinian on 26 July 1945.[6]"

This is not entirely accurate. According to the actual handwritten and typed Los Alamos documents reproduced in my book Atom Bombs:The Top Secret Inside Story of Little Boy and Fat Man, the partially-assembled Little Boy combat weapon L-11 was contained inside a 41” x 47” x 138” wood crate weighing 10,000 pounds that was secured to the deck. Unlike the six U-235 target discs, which were later flown to Tinian on three separate planes arriving July 28 and 29, the assembled projectile with the nine U-235 rings installed was shipped in a single lead-lined steel container weighing 300 pounds that was securely locked to brackets welded to the floor of Captain Charles McVay’s quarters. There was no Fat Man assembly of any kind on the Indianapolis. The only Little Boy assembly dropped off on Tinian on July 26 1945 was this actual combat unit with the projectile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.217.165.167 (talk) 18:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Atomicjohn (it's you, isn't it?), if you find something wrong in the text and have got sources that confirm that, then by all means go ahead and fix the frigging article! :-) Don't worry too much about the correct wiki-syntax, citation templates etc; just put in the info and the source, and somebody else will come along and tidy things up. That's how Wikipedia works and, by the way, it is decent editors like yourself that the project needs most (only one note: it's easier and clearer if you log in, before making changes, so that your edits don't come up as made by an anonymous IP number). Cheers! --Giuliopp (talk) 21:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, tis me. I'm new at this and when I made some corrections a few days to the John P. Merrill page directly ago I got my fingers slapped. I'll wait for a response from you before I go in and edit this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atomicjohn (talk • contribs) 21:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Nah... nobody really meant to slap your fingers. Unfortunately you made your changes right after some vandalism by another anonymous user (see the history); you were a newly-registered user and also made some changes later as anonymous user; your changes involved the deletion of significant portions of text – all things that made established editors mistake you for a vandal. Some hints and tips in no particular order: write as it would read on an encyclopedia article (i.e. opinions like "This statement about Merril is wrong" are for this place: the discussion page, not the article body); put a word or two about yourself on your user page – it clarifies who you are and makes your user name come up as a blue, 'ordinary' editor, instead of a 'red link' – so typical of vandals; when writing on here (the discussion page), put four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your post, to automatically sign it with your user name. Happy editing! --Giuliopp (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The?

The aircraft is referred to both as Enola Gay, and more frequently, The Enola Gay. Is there any good reason why that "the" is there? Can we choose one version of the name, and stick to it? TheMadBaron (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It is common in American English to attach a "the" in front of prominent objects: the USS Eisenhower, the Empire State Building, the Statue of Liberty. However, when describing components of it, "the" is dropped: "USS Eisenhower aircraft flew in Operation ...", "Empire State Building employees went on strike", "Statue of Liberty guests were treated today to a fireworks show...". I see nothing in the article that is grammatically incorrect. Buffs (talk) 23:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

== William Sterling Parsons spelled his nickname "Deke". All references to him and all biographical information about him in print or online - save for here on Wikipedia - lists the spelling that way. I've been reading about the Manhattan Project since I was 12, am now 51, and have *never* seen it spelled any other way until now. So, his Wikipedia article is wrong, not my edit. I will now change both.Uncle Bubba (talk) 12:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Controversy Section

The section on the exhibition controversy gives only one perspective, namely, the critics'. After or before the sentence that starts "Critics of the planned..." there should be a sentence that succinctly describes the curators' intentions. Even the very first sentence of the section, which appears to be purely factual, subtly takes a partisan position by stating that the purpose of the exhibit was to *commemorate*. It was the critics who argued that the purpose of the exhibit should be commemoration; the curators, in contrast, thought that commemoration was akin to celebration, and wanted instead to spark critical reflection. It is ironic that the exhibit's critics, who claimed that it was unbalanced, should have their perspective reproduced in an unbalanced way on Wikipedia. Jesse Ramirez (talk) 11:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a source for what the curators' intentions were? I can incorporate it into the article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the subsection on "Exhibition controversy," as an ex-military aviation historian, who was an aviation industry reporter reporting on the affair, I regard the current paragraph on that topic as appropriately neutral (WP:NPOV), if a bit vague. The controversy was extremely hot, at the time, and neither side was behaving with the sober discipline and objective approach called for in a national history museum. It was one of the worst moments in American historiography and museum curation. Both sides did horrible disservice to the traditions of honest and sober historiography, each side pushing largely vindictive, narrowly factional views of history. No doubt, both factions will have advocates who will attempt to sabotage and/or slant this story, on Wikipedia, but as the paragraph stands, now, as of Jan. 5, 2017, it is presented accurately, fairly, and realistically. Thanks to the mature, disciplined, responsible, sober editors who made it so.

~ Zxtxtxz (talk) 06:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

This section should also go on to discuss the later controversy that arose around 2003 when the aircraft was placed at the Smithsonian Institution Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center . Lee De Cola (talk) 18:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Since you supplied a source, I have added additional material on this to the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:37, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Measurements and other info apparently in error

(NOTE: This title added, by another editor, to the following text, to separate it from the previous text which is apparently unrelated to the following comments.)

~ Zxtxtxz (talk) 06:08, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

There is obviously some bad information in this article. I would edit it, but I am not aware of the correct information.

Here is what I am referring to: "After leaving Tinian, the aircraft made their way separately to Iwo Jima, where they rendezvoused at 2,440 meters (8,010 ft) and set course for Japan. The aircraft arrived over the target in clear visibility at 9,855 meters (32,333 ft). Captain William S. "Deak" Parsons of Project Alberta, who was in command of the mission, armed the bomb during the flight to minimize the risks during takeoff. His assistant, Second Lieutenant Morris R. Jeppson, removed the safety devices 30 minutes before reaching the target area.[13]

The release at 08:15 (Hiroshima time) went as planned, and the Little Boy took 43 seconds to fall from the aircraft flying at 31,060 feet (9,470 m) to the predetermined detonation height about 1,968 feet (600 m)"

No one measures aircraft altitudes in meters, it's always done, around the world, in feet, so that all pilots and controllers are talking the same language, to avoid confusion.

In addition, no device measures altitude so precisely as "8010 feet', or "32,333 feet", or even '9,855 meters'..

It appears obvious that someone without knowledge of aircraft operations but a great sense of english-metric conversion thought he was doing some good, but actually screwed up the page.

I also strongly doubt that a Captain Parson was in charge of anything but the actual bomb. He was heavily outranked by Colonel Tibbits, who I believe was a full bird colonel. Cap[tain Parsons is listed as 'Weaponer' on at least one web site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2002:1890:797B:0:5CC8:AF98:3FF9:8AC9 (talk) 04:17, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Info on Captain Parson, and a picture that might help the article, as it lists and shows all crew members.

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Photos/Tinian/image1.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.121.123 (talk) 04:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

A captain in the Navy is the same as a colonel in the Air Force. They wear the same silver eagles. But Deak Parsons was senior in grade, having been promoted in June 1943, and outranked Paul Tibbets, who was promoted to colonel in January 1945. Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:16, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

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B-29

The enola gay was not used for the bombing of Nagasaki. It was used only for Hiroshima as the bockscar was used for nagasaki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JakeH02 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

It didn't drop the atomic bomb Nagasaki, but it did fly weather reconnaissance during that mission. - BilCat (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Exhibit

This says the exhibit opened in 1994:

https://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/december-2003/historians-protest-new-enola-gay-exhibit

-- Steve -- (talk) 15:14, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

No, it says The current controversy continues the acrimonious debate about exhibiting the Enola Gay that began in 1994. In that year curators at the Air and Space Museum planned to exhibit the aircraft It refers to the controvery over plans to exhibit the aurcraft. The dates in both the Wikipedia article and that one are correct. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:07, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Jacob Beser discrepancies

This article lists Jacob Beser as flying on Enola Gay for the Nagasaki mission, but the articles on Jacob Beser and Bockscar both list him on Bockscar. They also disagree on his rank (first lieutenant or second lieutenant). Can someone with access to the sources correct these? -- gparker (talk) 07:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Y I have all the sources. I checked the sources listed, and also consulted some others, including Beser's own account. He was on Bockscar on the Nagasaki mission. And his rank was first lieutenant. I have corrected both articles. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:19, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Date format

I see that the article uses Template:Use dmy dates but I find that a bit strange. This is an article about a plane manufactured by an American company, flown by American pilots for the US military, named after an American woman, and on display in multiple US government-run museums. For all intents and purposes, an American plane. Surely, with all that, it would make more logical sense to use the standard American-style dating format of month-day-year, as is prescribed in MOS:DATETIES. Based on that I'm tempted to be WP:BOLD and make the change myself, but I am curious if there is a reason why the article is currently formatted in this way that overrides this policy and for which those hypothetical edits would/should be undone. QuietHere (talk) 11:52, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

The US military uses the dmy date format. WP:MILFORMAT: In topics where a date format that differs from the usual national one is in customary usage, that format should be used for related articles: for example, articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military, should use day-before-month, in accordance with US military usage. . Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. We use the DMY format in almost all American military aircraft articles from at least the WWII period forward. The main exception would be military aircraft that are variants of civilian aircraft, such as the Beechcraft Model 18 (Twin Beech), if they are covered in the same article under the civilian name. If the military variant has a separate article, it will use DMY, while the civilian article will use MDY, as with the C-47 and DC-3 articles. BilCat (talk) 20:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

That I wasn't aware of, thanks for clarifying. Case closed! QuietHere (talk) 00:40, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

No problem. BilCat (talk) 01:11, 5 May 2022 (UTC)